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Thread: An Introduction and a Question

  1. #1
    Regular Member mannys9130's Avatar
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    An Introduction and a Question

    Hello all,
    My name is Manny from Tucson, AZ. To be short, I have just turned 18 at the end of April. I just moved out and have had a great time learning about the "real world". Unfortunately, I have already had 2 incidents that have resulted in me REALLY wanting to open carry a handgun. The first was when my friend picked a fight with 3 Aryan Brotherhood members and I swore we were going to be shot, and the second was with a violent drunk who threatened my 19 year old friend, 17 year old lady friend, and myself in the parking lot after work. I don't want to come across as immature, as I think I am quite knowledgeable about firearms, firearm safety, and the right/duty to protect one's body. I have been shooting every kind of civilian firearm under the sun since 8 years old. I was lucky my dad was into shooting because I was originally born in...Massachusetts. Luckily we moved here a few years ago. My dad usually conceals most of the time, but he OCs some times.

    As it stands, I have a small collection of surplus rifles, a 12 Ga. shotgun that fills the home defense role (bought from a pawn shop and got proceed first try) and a Nagant pistol that was gifted to me by my Dad.

    As I understand it, owning a handgun at 18 in AZ is legal as long as the firearm was a gift from a parent or grandparent, or you procured the firearm from a private sale. Same deal with ammunition. You cannot procure it from an FFL shop, but you can from private sales. If you lie to Wal-mart about using ammo in a rifle that you intend to use in a pistol, you commit a federal felony. I also understand there is no registration or paper work needed to document the sale or gift. Is this correct?

    I understand that an early 1900s pistol is not the best carry option, and probably quite frankly a horrible choice. It does however, exceed the capability of the Glock knife that I am currently open carrying. I have it loaded currently in the home with .32 H&R cartridges. Tested on the range, the only negative to using these is that the case bulges and makes extraction difficult and reloading impossible. I think a handgun vastly increases the deterrent factor over a knife, since people feel like they can disarm a knife armed citizen. You cannot dodge a bullet that easy.

    Until I have the money needed to purchase a respectable firearm to OC, I wanted to be sure my setup would be legal before doing ANYTHING.

    Currently, I carry a Glock 78 field knife (similar to a K-Bar) on my belt, in scabbard, openly. I ride a motorcycle exclusively, meaning no car, all around Tucson. I leave my knife open on top of my riding jacket and on my belt, in the sheath.

    I would like to: Carry my Nagant pistol in its military holster on my belt openly. My concern is the whole concealment while in/on transportation. Am I legally allowed to get on my bike with my handgun in its holster and open carried on my belt? If not, would I have to unload and secure the firearm in my backpack? I don't have any saddle bags. It would be me, on the bike, right hand strong side draw with the holster's flap closed, but obvious that it was a handgun in the holster. Is that legal?

    I had one guy in the gas station (the clerk) say to me as I walked out "yo dude is that a blade"? I just said "Yes, it is a Glock knife". He replied "Is that legal"? I said "yeah, you can open carry weapons at 18 years old". This event made me nervous, and I started to read furiously about the topic. I don't want to be harassed or worse, arrested by a LEO for open carrying.

    So, what do you guys think? Is there a difference between me-open carried fixed blade knife-on a bike, and me-open carried Nagant revolver-on a bike? This is a serious question, and I welcome any and all feedback. Just remember that this would be temporary until a proper gun can be had.
    -Manny

  2. #2
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannys9130 View Post

    SNIP ..... this movie has been edited for time

    I would like to: Carry my Nagant pistol in its military holster on my belt openly. My concern is the whole concealment while in/on transportation. Am I legally allowed to get on my bike with my handgun in its holster and open carried on my belt? If not, would I have to unload and secure the firearm in my backpack? I don't have any saddle bags. It would be me, on the bike, right hand strong side draw with the holster's flap closed, but obvious that it was a handgun in the holster. Is that legal?


    -Manny
    Welcome

    Brevity will get you quicker answers. I didn't feel like reading all that when you originally posted.

    @ younger than 21 I wouldn't reccomend a flap holster since it could be construed as concealed despite A.R.S. 13-3102. I seem to remember AZCDLFred talking about detainment or arrests on B or C. I could argue that C would include a purse or fanny pack designed for carry. I could also lose in court. (Granted I'm not a woman or under 21)

    I cut out a lot of that statute, so you should follow the link above and read it.

    Code:
    13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions
    
    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
    
    1. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation:
    
    (a) In the furtherance of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706, a violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03 or any other felony offense; or
    
    (b) When contacted by a law enforcement officer and failing to accurately answer the officer if the officer asks whether the person is carrying a concealed deadly weapon; or 
    
    2. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or concealed within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation if the person is under twenty-one years of age; or
    Or is such an ambiguous word. I could read that to say you are prohibited from carrying on a means of transportation period, locked in a separate case or not. Nevermind, the or refers to in or on. I missed the in word. See why lawyers are so important.

    I highlighted knowingly because I appreciate that our legislators put the thought into it.


    Code:
    B. Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to:
    
    1. A person in his dwelling, on his business premises or on real property owned or leased by that person or that person's parent, grandparent or legal guardian.
    
    2. A member of the sheriff's volunteer posse or reserve organization who has received and passed firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board and who is authorized by the sheriff to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to section 11-441.
    
    3. A firearm that is carried in:
    
    (a) A manner where any portion of the firearm or holster in which the firearm is carried is visible. 
    
    (b) A holster that is wholly or partially visible.
    
    (c) A scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons that is wholly or partially visible.
    
    (d) Luggage.
    
    (e) A case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.
    I think part of the intention of (e) is to prevent you from being charged for concealed carry if you are 18 -20 and carrying in a vehicle with a holstered firearm. Notice I put the statutes in the code tag because that's what it is without precedent.
    Last edited by sharkey; 06-30-2012 at 01:53 AM. Reason: Added links to fanny pack and vehicle carry case law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    The post is outdated but since you're under 21 it may be relevant even though your talking about a motorcycle (no door obstructing the view) and not a car.

    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    HB 2389, which removes the reference to vehicles in ARS 13-3102 (misconduct involving weapons),will be heard in the House Judiciary Committee on Thursday, February 7, 2008.

    Current law (ARS 13-3102.F) states that, without a concealed weapons (CCW) permit, it is permissible to carry a weapon or weapons ‚€œ‚€¶in a case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.‚€Ě

    Unfortunately, in 1994 an Arizona Appellate court decision (State v. Adams) determined that ‚€œwithin a means of transportation‚€Ě meant it must be obvious under ordinary observation to someone outside the vehicle that there is a weapon inside the vehicle. This created conflicts interpreting the statute. As a result:

    ¬∑ Wearing a holstered firearm within a vehicle = concealed carry, requiring a CCW permit. But, that same holstered firearm in a map pocket, trunk or glove compartment, accessible by a vehicle‚€™s occupants, does not require a CCW permit.

    ¬∑ Possessing a concealed weapons permit and a concealed weapon puts other occupants in the vehicle, who do not possess a CCW permit, at risk of arrest because of their proximity to your firearm. Yet, if that same weapon were in a map pocket, trunk, or glove compartment accessible by all the vehicle‚€™s occupants, no crime is committed.

    SNIP ............

    Fred has covered everything ... wow.

    From now on any questions in AZ just search for a FredThread

    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Yeah - It's a shamelss plug for the Arizona Citizens Defense League (AzCDL):
    http://www.AzCDL.org.

    One of our (AzCDL) goals is to restore the open carry rights here in AZ. In 1994, two court decisions screwed up vechicle carry and clouded open carry. They areState v. Moerman and State v. Adams. You can find them here:
    ( http://www.azcdl.org/html/educational.html )

    If you want to help, you can join AzCDL or at least sign up for our Alerts (they're free) to keep you posted of legislative progress.

    Fred
    Last edited by sharkey; 06-30-2012 at 01:51 AM. Reason: Add another Fred Thread

  4. #4
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannys9130 View Post
    Hello all,
    My name is Manny from Tucson, AZ. To be short, I have just turned 18 at the end of April. I just moved out and have had a great time learning about the "real world". Unfortunately, I have already had 2 incidents that have resulted in me REALLY wanting to open carry a handgun. The first was when my friend picked a fight with 3 Aryan Brotherhood members and I swore we were going to be shot, and the second was with a violent drunk who threatened my 19 year old friend, 17 year old lady friend, and myself in the parking lot after work.

    SNIP .......
    LOL

    Being an armed instigator or accomplice is a bad idea. Hopefully your friends will carry themselves better when you're armed. I know I'm nicer when I am.
    Last edited by sharkey; 06-30-2012 at 01:40 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member mannys9130's Avatar
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    I apologize for the novel... I just get so concerned that people would read my post and not fully understand my situation. They would therefore give wrong advice or point in the wrong direction.

    I have COMPLETELY scrapped the entire Nagant and military holster idea. Number 1 reason is just the way it looked (modeled in front of the mirror). Totally unprofessional, and in my eye, that is very important. Someone on here said that as an 18 year old open carry proponent, you become a magnet for all law enforcement. I am now working on buying a Smith & Wesson Model 10-5 from my dad that I could use for carry. I feel like a more conventional revolver in a modern hip holster in a modern caliber would be much better. I could not even begin to describe my fear of a LEO fumbling around with the Nagant trying to figure out how to unload it (old six shooter loading gate style, round by round).

    As for the open carry, I seem to have come to the conclusion that strapping on a handgun openly and walking around is not a crime for an 18 year old. Believe it or not, I have actually had a time of convincing my own dad that it is legal. He insisted that the age to OWN a handgun was 21. I realized that he was mixing up the federal law stating the age to purchase from an FFL. Then we started talking about the Ridley report....

    A casual observer that walked up to me from my right side while on the bike, would most definitely be able to see that I was carrying a handgun. I could put the gun in my backpack during travel, but that seems more concealed to me then just being on my belt in the open...

    Regarding the fight my friend got into, I did not want to be involved at all. 3 guys versus my friend, all 3 armed with handguns and my friend armed with nothing. I did have a pocket knife at the time, but that would just be absurd... I walked away, and did not stand back with my friend until they were gone for a good 10 minutes. I just hid behind a car and smoked my cigar, waiting for them to do a drive by shooting. In that situation if I was carrying, I would have retreated (great friend) and only drawn if they came to give me trouble.

    I better stop before I get ahead of myself again... Thanks a bunch for the help!

  6. #6
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    I ramble too.

    Carry on

  7. #7
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    From now on any questions in AZ just search for a FredThread
    Thanks for the plug

    However, some of my posts predate recent changes to the law. Current laws regarding 18-21 carry can be found in ARS 13.3102.B.3

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 07-01-2012 at 02:17 PM.

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