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Thread: Clark County Handgun Registration program revisited

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Clark County Handgun Registration program revisited

    Hey, I know there's at least one thread somewhere in here talking about challenging the CC handgun registration program on the basis of its inefficiency, financial burden, ineffectual results, etc., etc. I found a Review Journal article from 2010 http://www.npri.org/publications/sta...n-registration that indicates that's kinda been an ongoing pursuit, without much result... maybe with no result. Seems our illustrious County Sheriff and County Auditor have balked at providing any meaningful data (or any data at all) that would be beneficial in determining "the worth" of the program. Here are some "highlights" of that RJ article. I'm sure some of your are familiar with this.

    (State Senator John) Lee has challenged the program multiple times. During the 2007 legislative session, he wrote a letter to the LVMPD requesting justification of the program. However, Lee's letter was ignored. "It's a service with no service," Lee said. "It's turf building on the [LVMPD's] part and we've never received back any financial data on the program."


    (Nevada Policy Research Institute) NPRI also struggled obtaining information from the LVMPD. After following up on an ignored public records request, NPRI was transferred between four departments before the LVMPD (even) acknowledged receipt of the request.



    In October (2010), Clark County Commissioner and gubernatorial candidate Rory Reid asked the Clark County Manager's office to arrange an audit of the registration program. He requested information on program appropriations and objective data indicating the program's success, among other items. As of the time of this report (November 2010), the audit is on the "to-do" list of the county auditor.



    According to Metro Sergeant Chuck Callaway, a quality assurance audit has not been performed on the registration program in years nor was an audit planned for the near future.

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    Sounds to me like we need to make this a campaign issue for the relevent politicians. In all reality, now is an excellent time to address this, what with budget shortfalls and such. This is a perfect example of waste that city/county politicians should be able to latch onto and be on the right side of during campaign season.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    "campaign issue" means politics. I'm skeptical of that helping, especially with as Californicated as we've become. But it would be a pleasant surprise if it did.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    There are only two ways to handle it that I can think of. Either bring a suit against the state in federal court on the basis that the law treats us in Clark County as sub citizens, in which case those records are subpoenaed, or we get the legislature to require periodic audits. Both take time and money. Either way it sounds like a job for NVFAC.

    TBG
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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoobee View Post
    Hey, you guys in Nevada aren't nearly as communistic as us in Californiay. Not even close.

    California is a police state where even the police are worthless.

    You at least have CCW shall-issue and open carry.

    So what if you need to register your guns? So what? Take them all down to the county office and register each one, so what?

    Ours get registered when we buy them. And it makes little difference.

    I would give or do anything to be able to CCW and OC in California. Particularly since this is where we need it most.

    "So what?" Well, how about the Constitution which clearly says we have a RIGHT to keep and bear arms, both NV and US. "So What?"
    What about the fact that we in Clark County are, with state approval, held to higher standards then any other citizen in NV. "So What?" How about the fact that we here in Clark County are tired of paying for a system that proves no benefit for the citizens of this County.

    "I would give or do anything to be able to CCW and OC in California." So, what are you doing to change it?

    TBG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoobee View Post
    Hey, you guys in Nevada aren't nearly as communistic as us in Californiay. Not even close.

    California is a police state where even the police are worthless.

    You at least have CCW shall-issue and open carry.

    So what if you need to register your guns? So what? Take them all down to the county office and register each one, so what?

    Ours get registered when we buy them. And it makes little difference.

    I would give or do anything to be able to CCW and OC in California. Particularly since this is where we need it most.

    (Btw this new avatar photo is at the tip of Cathedral Peak in the Spring Mountains of Charleston. It was an absolutely beautiful hike.)


    So what is why California is in the condition it is in now.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoobee View Post
    ...So what if you need to register your guns? So what?
    I'm thinking that was once said in California, too.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    THIS IS NOT A JOKE !!!!

    IANAL, but I was thinking about the equal protection under the law statue in the Constitution. A criminal does not register their weapons(normally) in CC. I am REQUIRED to register mine in CC. Could I or YOU fire a lawsuit that criminals are ALLOWED(those that are not caught) to carry "unregistered" weapons and I am NOT.

    Therefore could you or I sue as a violation of the equal protection under the law AND is there a pro bono lawyer known to our group who would like to make a name for himself

    NAVYBLUE

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAVYBLUE View Post
    THIS IS NOT A JOKE !!!!

    IANAL, but I was thinking about the equal protection under the law statue in the Constitution. A criminal does not register their weapons(normally) in CC. I am REQUIRED to register mine in CC. Could I or YOU fire a lawsuit that criminals are ALLOWED(those that are not caught) to carry "unregistered" weapons and I am NOT.

    Therefore could you or I sue as a violation of the equal protection under the law AND is there a pro bono lawyer known to our group who would like to make a name for himself

    NAVYBLUE
    I brought this up a long time ago. Not with regards to criminals but with regard to all other people in this state. We in Clark County do not have the same rights as those who live in all other parts of the state. We are held separate by state statute because it grandfathers Clark County as an exception to state preemption. A clear violation, in my opinion, of the US Constitution. As I said, this has been discussed on here in depth and many don't see it this way.

    TBG
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAVYBLUE View Post
    THIS IS NOT A JOKE !!!!

    IANAL, but I was thinking about the equal protection under the law statue in the Constitution. A criminal does not register their weapons(normally) in CC. I am REQUIRED to register mine in CC. Could I or YOU fire a lawsuit that criminals are ALLOWED(those that are not caught) to carry "unregistered" weapons and I am NOT.

    Therefore could you or I sue as a violation of the equal protection under the law AND is there a pro bono lawyer known to our group who would like to make a name for himself

    NAVYBLUE
    I am not a lawyer either, but to restate what I think you are saying:

    A felon, or anyone else who is prohibited from possessing a firearm, could never be convicted of failure to register his firearm as that would go against his 5th amendment protection from self-incrimination. The US Supreme Court has already ruled on this in Haynes v. US (1968). With that in mind, the only person who could ever be prosecuted for failure to register is an otherwise law-abiding citizen. That can not be the intent of the law.

    Since there exists a class of people (criminals) who are not and can not be subjected to the punishment portion of this law, then it seems to be a fairly clear 14th amendment violation.
    Last edited by SoLasVegas; 06-29-2012 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoobee View Post

    Ours get registered when we buy them. And it makes little difference.
    It makes all the difference because it allows the state to allow you to own only what they say you can. Please stay in california we do not need your type of thinking here. With gun owners like you the brady bunch will continue to gain control. Go away.

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    Watching your trials and tribulations from here in the Free North, and even though the Blue Card program was grandfathered in, I sincerely hope this ridiculous time and money wasting scheme stops and stops quickly. I feel for you guys down there, I really do.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0neZ View Post
    Watching your trials and tribulations from here in the Free North, and even though the Blue Card program was grandfathered in, I sincerely hope this ridiculous time and money wasting scheme stops and stops quickly. I feel for you guys down there, I really do.
    Just remember when the time comes we will need your support up there. What happens down here can easily come calling up there.

    TBG
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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    How about this...

    Article 4, Section 21 of the Nevada Constitution says: General laws to have uniform application.  In all cases enumerated in the preceding section, and in all other cases where a general law can be made applicable, all laws shall be general and of uniform operation throughout the State.

    Seems to me having a Nevada Revised Statute that makes only the residents of one particular county within the state subject to a "restriction" or "requirement" doesn't lend itself well to "uniform operation throughout the State."

    Of course, that's just my opinion... "we" would need a constitutional lawyer with the same or similar opinion willing to file a suit. And, if the law is a State law and it seemingly violates the tenants of the state constitution, it wouldn't be a federal matter so the suit would be within the State courts system, ultimately landing at the Nevada Supreme Court.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Must one "have standing" or some harm to them before a suit can be filed?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    How about this...

    Article 4, Section 21 of the Nevada Constitution says: General laws to have uniform application.  In all cases enumerated in the preceding section, and in all other cases where a general law can be made applicable, all laws shall be general and of uniform operation throughout the State.

    Seems to me having a Nevada Revised Statute that makes only the residents of one particular county within the state subject to a "restriction" or "requirement" doesn't lend itself well to "uniform operation throughout the State."

    Of course, that's just my opinion... "we" would need a constitutional lawyer with the same or similar opinion willing to file a suit. And, if the law is a State law and it seemingly violates the tenants of the state constitution, it wouldn't be a federal matter so the suit would be within the State courts system, ultimately landing at the Nevada Supreme Court.
    Very good find. Here is the way I see it. I have argued that the state preemption law that codifies Clark County Blue Card law is a violation of the Equal protection clause of the US Constitution because it allows Clark County the right to treat it's citizens different than that which the other citizens of the State of NV enjoy under the same state law. The grandfather clause under preemption is state law. It also looks to be in violation of the NV Constitution as well according to what I read here.

    I'm going to send this over to Don Turner and see if I can get the NVFAC pulse on this.

    TBG
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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Must one "have standing" or some harm to them before a suit can be filed?
    Just thinking... rather than a law suit, perhaps "pointing out" to the legislators at the next session that the law they previously passed is inconsistent with the provisions of the state constitution might get the ball rolling. Perhaps at least it would add a little "spice" to all the rest of the "crap" that will be thrown.

    Are you listening NVFAC?
    Last edited by usmcmustang; 06-29-2012 at 10:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Must one "have standing" or some harm to them before a suit can be filed?
    It's not a stretch to say that the hours wasted at a LVMPD substation to get your firearm registered are an undue burden that is not imposed on others. Calculate what your time is worth and list that as damages. That might be enough.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I was thinking of OC'ing while attempting to register. You are fully complying with the law while ATTEMPTING to comply with another law, but ________________________ (fill in the blank).
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    Just thinking... rather than a law suit, perhaps "pointing out" to the legislators at the next session that the law they previously passed is inconsistent with the provisions of the state constitution might get the ball rolling. Perhaps at least it would add a little "spice" to all the rest of the "crap" that will be thrown.

    Are you listening NVFAC?
    What if we had a national organization (or even NVFAC) behind us to at least threaten the State AG with a lawsuit regarding that portion of preemption that gives Clark County a pass on this issue in violation of the US 14th amendment, and Article 4, Section 21 of the NV Constitution? Let's remember that Masto backed down over the state parks issue when suit was brought by Mountain States Legal Foundation.

    If she backed down on that, would she back down on the grandfather clause to state preemption? As I see it, Clark County would not even be a party to the action as it would be directed to state law not county law. The emphasis would be on striking that portion and requiring Clark County to then abide by full preemption.

    Thoughts?

    TBG
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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Must one "have standing" or some harm to them before a suit can be filed?
    Al Baker of ID, was threatened with six months' jail time if he fired his gun in Nevada state parks, even in self-defense. That was enough to give him standing to suit the state of NV park system. AG Masto backed down and now we can carry in state parks. I'm sure a plaintiff could be found somewhere for this issue.

    TBG
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Yes. How do we proceed?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Yes. How do we proceed?
    I have inquired of Don Turner of NVFAC and will await his response. If they can't be moved to move on it, then I will start contacting other firearms rights organizations to see if there is anyone interested in getting involved.

    TBG
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Must one "have standing" or some harm to them before a suit can be filed?
    No, you can file suit for anything that you like.

    However, if you have no standing, the opposition can usually get summary dismissal.

    What you really need down there is a volunteer to openly refuse to register ANY firearm (someone moving from outside the area, or someone with no currently-registered firearms).

    The county will then have two choices -- prosecute or ignore it. If they prosecute, that person thus has standing to challenge the regulation (and we can all help support the costs). If they do NOT prosecute (which is possible -- prosecution costs money and there is no real point to it in this situation), people can pretty much ignore the regulation . . .then if they ever DO zap someone, it can be argued that the regulation had been vacated through non-enforcement. The county will then have to go to the expense and trouble to explain how the regulation is still grandfathered if not enforced.

    Remember also that this is NOT a LAW -- counties don't have the power to write law. It is a REGULATION, which is nothing more than a way that the county chooses to do things, and only stands today because the county is claiming that it conforms to the law.

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post

    Remember also that this is NOT a LAW -- counties don't have the power to write law. It is a REGULATION, which is nothing more than a way that the county chooses to do things, and only stands today because the county is claiming that it conforms to the law.
    No, it is not a REGULATION... it is a County Ordinance/Code. Here it is:


    12.04.110 - Registration of pistols within seventy-two hours.


    Any resident of the county receiving title to a pistol, whether by purchase, gift, or any other transfer, and whether from a dealer or from any other person, shall, within seventy-two hours of such receipt, personally appear at the county sheriff's office, together with the pistol, for the purpose of registering the same with the sheriff. It shall be the duty of the sheriff to register the pistol, and he may, and is hereby authorized to cooperate in any manner he sees fit with other law enforcement agencies, and with licensed dealers, relative to registration of pistols, so that efficient registration shall be secured at minimum cost and duplication. (Ord. 3571 3, 2007: Ord. 242 11, 1965)


    State executive agencies carry out state laws through the development and enforcement of regulations. Authorized by statutes, regulations (sometimes called rules or administrative laws) have the effect of law. Someone violating a regulation is, in effect, violating the law that created it. However, this County Ordinance is definitely not a REGULATION. Just as a state may delegate the authority to make regulations to administrative agencies, it may also delegate certain powers to other units of government within the state. County and municipal governments DO enact laws, often called ordinances, via specific powers granted to them by the state. County and municipal ordinances apply to everyone within the county or municipality limits.

    If "Any resident" does not comply with the ordinance, a "law" is broken... not a "regulation."

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