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Thread: Interesting discussion with Excesior Springs MO police chief

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    Interesting discussion with Excesior Springs MO police chief

    While I was at the local Waterfest I ran into the chief of police whom I know in passing. I asked hmi about open carry in Excelsior (I already knew the ordinance). We discussed Missouri's pre-emption law and the local ordinance. He informed me that it was legal to open carry but if they received compaints and it became common they would change the ordinance to make it illegal to open carry. Ok we have a right but if we use it too much they will make it illegal? Does this sound like America? Can you use a right to much? No you can't. Any members from The Excesior Area want to organise an open carry event in Excelsior?

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1A shooter View Post
    While I was at the local Waterfest I ran into the chief of police whom I know in passing. I asked hmi about open carry in Excelsior (I already knew the ordinance). We discussed Missouri's pre-emption law and the local ordinance. He informed me that it was legal to open carry but if they received compaints and it became common they would change the ordinance to make it illegal to open carry. Ok we have a right but if we use it too much they will make it illegal? Does this sound like America? Can you use a right to much? No you can't. Any members from The Excesior Area want to organise an open carry event in Excelsior?
    Are you trying to say that your police chief thinks he has enough influence that he can get the STATE to just change their law to suit Him?

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    Regular Member Griz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Are you trying to say that your police chief thinks he has enough influence that he can get the STATE to just change their law to suit Him?
    Missouri does not have pre-emption. The Chief probably does have enough influence to help change the local ordinance.

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    Didn't know

    Thanks Griz! Neither I nor the Cheif knew this:

    2. No county, city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation concerning in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition, and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.

    I will be sending this to the Chief pronto. So now I pose this question, are there any members in the Excelsior Springs area that want to ahve an open carry event? Contact me if you do. I've go alot of time on my hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M1A shooter View Post
    Thanks Griz! Neither I nor the Cheif knew this:

    2. No county, city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation concerning in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition, and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.

    I will be sending this to the Chief pronto. So now I pose this question, are there any members in the Excelsior Springs area that want to ahve an open carry event? Contact me if you do. I've go alot of time on my hands.
    Before you embarrass yourself, keep reading, then write.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Before you embarrass yourself, keep reading, then write.


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    haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by M1A shooter View Post
    Thanks Griz! Neither I nor the Cheif knew this:

    2. No county, city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation concerning in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition, and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.
    And exactly WHAT does "subsection 3" have to say about their ability to do those things mentioned? It could be important! Pax...
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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    And exactly WHAT does "subsection 3" have to say about their ability to do those things mentioned? It could be important! Pax...
    Always read the fine print.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    And exactly WHAT does "subsection 3" have to say about their ability to do those things mentioned? It could be important! Pax...
    Quote Originally Posted by Subsection 3
    3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243.
    Y'all can follow the trail from there, but the 252.243 looks like it only addresses discharge of firearms in certain hunting areas, so perhaps open carry is fair game.
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-02-2012 at 02:22 AM.
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    That's what happens when you talk to cops....BUT, he does know that OC is not illegal, it's a start.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Google RSMO 21.750 read and decipher. The municipalities in MO have the right to regulate open carry of firearms. The spineless legislature does not have the back bone to address this. Therefore in MO it is a patchwork of places that do and do not regulate OC.

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    Update to Conversation with Chief

    This morning I called the Chief and directed him to 21.750.2 and he had already looked it from the voicemail I left him He fell back on 571.010 to 571.070. I couldn't see anything there that would prohibit open carry. He is taking it up with the city attorney. I went one step furhter and emailed tha State Attorney General for the official stance. We'll see what happens. Here is 571 info.
    571.

    010-definaitions of weapons
    014-unlawful refusal to transfer
    015-Armed criminal action
    017-imposition of sentences
    020-possession, mfg, transfer,repair etc.
    030-unlawfule use. does cover "exhibits" and concealed carry
    045-defacing a gun
    050-possessing a defaced gun
    060-unlawful transfer
    063-fraudulent purchases
    070-possession unlawful by certain people

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/C571.HTM

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    Google RSMO 21.750 read and decipher. The municipalities in MO have the right to regulate open carry of firearms. The spineless legislature does not have the back bone to address this. Therefore in MO it is a patchwork of places that do and do not regulate OC.
    21.750.2 states NO city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales taxand copmpensating use tax or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section. Section 3 covers may thing but nothing I can see that would prohit open carry.

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    21.750.3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision.....or which regulates the open carrying of firearms.....
    Does not get any more clear.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by M1A shooter View Post
    21.750.2 states NO city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales taxand copmpensating use tax or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section. Section 3 covers may thing but nothing I can see that would prohit open carry.
    If you can't read RSMo 21.750.3 and learn from it that political subdivisions can restrict both the open carrying of firearms and the discharge of firearms, then please hire a lawyer to explain it to you before you make a really expensive mistake.

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    Technically, it does not cost anything to get thrown in the can....free free free....the OP apparently likes free stuff.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    slight update to Chief Chat

    I have heard from the Attorney General office. They think it says open carry is legal but might be regulated through the restriction on "discharge of firearms" Seriously. If I have to defend myself or people under my care the last thing I'm gonna worry about is a fine for discharging my gun. So, I have posed more questions for that Office and will publish the final results.

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    If you can't read RSMo 21.750.3 and learn from it that political subdivisions can restrict both the open carrying of firearms and the discharge of firearms, then please hire a lawyer to explain it to you before you make a really expensive mistake.
    srsly. is the OP blind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    Google RSMO 21.750 read and decipher. The municipalities in MO have the right to regulate open carry of firearms. The spineless legislature does not have the back bone to address this. Therefore in MO it is a patchwork of places that do and do not regulate OC.
    Ergo, the most promising response is a letter-writing and office-visiting campaign to the spineless legislature, instead of trying to butt heads with a chief of police by organizing local meets that are likely to blow up in your face.

    In other words, learn from some of the lessons learned during WWII and Vietnam: Force on Force sucks. Use Force on Weakness. Instead of going head-to-head with the Chief (he will swat you), raise the issue with the legislature and pull the legal rug out from under the chief so that he won't have a leg to stand on.
    Last edited by since9; 07-10-2012 at 03:14 AM.
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    Reply from Missouri Attorney General"s Office

    Here is the email i received from the AG of MO office

    Dean, unfortunately we can't give an official interpretation, but can give you my personal understanding of the statutes. A court could still disagree.

    The legislature preempts political subdivisions in the field of firearms. However, an exception to this is that the regulation of the discharge of firearms is left to the political subdivisions eg municipalities. City councils of third and fourth class cities are specifically required by statute to enact ordinances regulating the discharge of firearms within their borders.



    Missouri Attorney Generalís office

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    AG of MO

    I also sent a rebuttal to the email I received. The AG only references discharge of a firearm. I asked him for an official stance of bearing or carry of a firearm. I'm not planning on opening a range or pot shooting at rats in the alley. Just wanted an official state response to open carry. Still have no response to that.

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    Another response from the AG's office

    Wow! I have received two more emails from the Attorney Generals office. The actual AG asked another assisant to respond to me. Basically he said yeah, RSMO 21.750 rules then sent another email directing me to read the whole of RSMO 571. And again it confirmed open carry, established punishment for abuses of that right, describe what weapons are and defined certain prohibited places. I was able to forward all this to the Police Chief and he was very thankfull for my initiative in this matter. I see some open carry in my future.

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