Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 50

Thread: local high school posting "no firearms allowed" on doors and property

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    3

    local high school posting "no firearms allowed" on doors and property



    The local public school system has posted "no firearms allowed" at the fenced borders of their properties and on all door entrances to their buildings. There are easily 10-12 signs on the high school property alone. The local city manager has been notified of the situation and has been given printouts of the MSP directives on PFZ's and open carry by CPL holders in those areas. The local city police chief was given the same MSP directive printouts last year. I had the understanding that making public property "off limits" was not allowed since it would be a pre-emption of State of Michigan law. Does this really mean a person cannot be on or in school property with a firearm being a CPL holder or otherwise, or, is this an invalid attempt at making public property off limits? If the latter is the case, what is the next step to correct the situation?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	phone pics 143.jpg 
Views:	134 
Size:	90.9 KB 
ID:	8749   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	phone pics 142.jpg 
Views:	135 
Size:	98.9 KB 
ID:	8750   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	phone pics 140.jpg 
Views:	155 
Size:	84.2 KB 
ID:	8751  
    Last edited by honest2pete; 07-02-2012 at 05:58 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Iowa, USA
    Posts
    1,249
    Michigan law makes it legal to oc with a cpl, and preemption applies. I would say signs hold no water.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5


    MCL 123.1102:

    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.


    1102 is a statute that specifically prohibits local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.


    It would seem the law spells this out clearly.

  4. #4
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Read MCL 123.1101. Tell me where schools are mentioned.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Clinton Twp
    Posts
    257
    If it's a public school I would show up at the next school board meeting OCing (If you have a CPL) present copies of the laws to the board members and tell them the signs violate the state preemption law and if they refuse to remove them consider contacting an attorney to sue the district. I wouldn't think illegal signs carry any weight and PERSONALLY I would ignore them and go about my business as usual.
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Heavymetal: See post #4

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Read MCL 123.1101. Tell me where schools are mentioned.
    So, then public schools ARE NOT local forms of government?

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Troy, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,321
    not yet
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Public schools get their charters directly from the state board of ed and not the city they serve -- so Grand Rapids Public School is NOT subordinate to the City of Grand Rapids.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Just a silly question from an outsider --

    Does your school board set a tax separate from that of the county/city? If so, they are a unit of government at the local level.

    If they get their funding via a tax set by the county/city, they are a subordinate agency of the county/city government and thus any policy they set must be approved by their superior level. Seems your preemption covers that.

    In other words, it seems that unless your school board is run directly by a state agency (yes, some places have that due to total failure of the locals to meet standards) they have stepped deeply into it.

    It could be that some weenie at the school board found the GFZ acts (federal or state) and jumped the gun in saying "Here's what we can use!" Sure would set a great example for the student body, no?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Schools levy their own mileage apart from any city/township.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Schools levy their own mileage apart from any city/township.
    So by virtue of the ability to levy their own mileages, public schools become a separate, but not "local" local, form of government that is NOT covered under preemption for some fantastic reason. This means that ANY public school either by singular site or building or by whole system can preempt State of Michigan law allowing concealed or open carry on property or in parking lots and open carry by CPL holders inside buildings? If this is true I would bet we will not have to wait long before local governments find new and creative ways for any and all local agencies to somehow become these mystical and separate non local "local" forms of government. How is it that we haven't heard non-stop reports of scary bloodthirsty gun right exercising madmen being hauled off to the local stockade for attending his kids track and field meet? Is this just simply ANOTHER attempt to skirt the law and deny honest citizens their rights under the United States and Michigan Constitutions?

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    School districts can't create ordinances...they can only create policies and trespass you.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    School districts can't create ordinances...they can only create policies and trespass you.


    So... "public" schools are actually non-local government agencies that operate locally by command of local school boards yet do so as private property owners with the ability to make up policy and regulation allowing them to trespass a citizen in possession of a firearm as long as there is proper signage to this intent and warning given? Incredible. Would then the "public" library be treated the same way if it was funded by private donations and public grants, built by "the league of concerned citizens for a spiffy local library" group then handed over to the municipality for administration purposes only? Wouldn't this become "private" property then? What about the "public" pool or a city park if the land was donated by a citizen but administered by the municipality? I am greatly confused now and wonder how would anyone know it was safe to carry openly or concealed anywhere? There are kids in the family that attend this school system. Am I to now assume that my rights are checked at the property line of any "public" agency that operates on "private" property so to speak? Yikes.

  15. #15
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Read MCL 123.1101. Tell me where schools are mentioned.
    Thanks Judge Aquilina.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  16. #16
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    Thanks Judge Aquilina.
    Authorities are different. They ate formed from the city/county/township (even though they can levy mileage). IIRC, their parent boards have to approve the mileage before it gets on the ballot.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    22
    In this case who could request an Attorney General opinion on the matter? Private citizens cannot and there doesn't seem to be a local unit of government to petition here, aside from the school board (who isn't a unit of government it seems), who would kprobably be very comfortable not have an AG opinion given.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Gobles, MI
    Posts
    178
    What about the man who was at the Grand Rapids school to vote? or is there something special about it because he was voting.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    Quote Originally Posted by honest2pete View Post


    The local public school system has posted "no firearms allowed" at the fenced borders of their properties and on all door entrances to their buildings. There are easily 10-12 signs on the high school property alone. The local city manager has been notified of the situation and has been given printouts of the MSP directives on PFZ's and open carry by CPL holders in those areas. The local city police chief was given the same MSP directive printouts last year. I had the understanding that making public property "off limits" was not allowed since it would be a pre-emption of State of Michigan law. Does this really mean a person cannot be on or in school property with a firearm being a CPL holder or otherwise, or, is this an invalid attempt at making public property off limits? If the latter is the case, what is the next step to correct the situation?
    Which school district was this? I don't think this is GRPS but, I could be wrong. Feel free to post here or pm.
    A post was made elsewhere, on another forum, that GRPS had posted their buildings. I am regularly in 3-4 buildings and have not seen any signs. I pm'd the op of that post and it was not personally seen by the op, rather it was something he had been told. So, if this was Grand Rapids Public Schools, I need some info so that I can approach administration.
    To add to this discussion, Q is correct. Public Schools are a creature created by the state. Whether a school can trespass people, they can and do but it is usually under a local ordinance regarding the disturbance of meetings. Whether they can do so for the mere carrying of a firearm is a question that really would be something for a court to decide. My guess is that, as the law has been interpreted by the Michigan Court of Appeals, they may not. However, I think any action concerning this is liable to be eventually adjudicated, much as CADL will be.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-02-2012 at 10:54 PM.

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Just a silly question from an outsider --

    Does your school board set a tax separate from that of the county/city? If so, they are a unit of government at the local level.

    If they get their funding via a tax set by the county/city, they are a subordinate agency of the county/city government and thus any policy they set must be approved by their superior level. Seems your preemption covers that.
    Thts what I was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by mecayuse View Post
    So by virtue of the ability to levy their own mileages, public schools become a separate, but not "local" local, form of government that is NOT covered under preemption for some fantastic reason. This means that ANY public school either by singular site or building or by whole system can preempt State of Michigan law allowing concealed or open carry on property or in parking lots and open carry by CPL holders inside buildings? If this is true I would bet we will not have to wait long before local governments find new and creative ways for any and all local agencies to somehow become these mystical and separate non local "local" forms of government. How is it that we haven't heard non-stop reports of scary bloodthirsty gun right exercising madmen being hauled off to the local stockade for attending his kids track and field meet? Is this just simply ANOTHER attempt to skirt the law and deny honest citizens their rights under the United States and Michigan Constitutions?
    They still have to follow state law, you can CC in the parking lot according to MCL 28.425o

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Depending on the wording of the CADL ruling, assuming it goes our way, and it probably won't, schools could be covered under preemption.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Depending on the wording of the CADL ruling, assuming it goes our way, and it probably won't, schools could be covered under preemption.
    I don't see that happening in any case.

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    If they say that just authorities arent covered, then no, its just authorities that will likely get someone killed.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-03-2012 at 09:05 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,274
    ....but but but....it's for the children!
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    An appeals court decides a case as narrowly as it can to answer the appealed question. I see now way schools could become involved in this decision.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •