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local high school posting "no firearms allowed" on doors and property

honest2pete

New member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
3
Location
Michigan
:eek:

The local public school system has posted "no firearms allowed" at the fenced borders of their properties and on all door entrances to their buildings. There are easily 10-12 signs on the high school property alone. The local city manager has been notified of the situation and has been given printouts of the MSP directives on PFZ's and open carry by CPL holders in those areas. The local city police chief was given the same MSP directive printouts last year. I had the understanding that making public property "off limits" was not allowed since it would be a pre-emption of State of Michigan law. Does this really mean a person cannot be on or in school property with a firearm being a CPL holder or otherwise, or, is this an invalid attempt at making public property off limits? If the latter is the case, what is the next step to correct the situation?
 

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Tucker6900

Regular Member
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Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
Michigan law makes it legal to oc with a cpl, and preemption applies. I would say signs hold no water.
 

mecayuse

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Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
5
Location
Michigan
:banana:

MCL 123.1102:

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.


§ 1102 is a statute that specifically prohibits local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.


It would seem the law spells this out clearly.
 

Hevymetal

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Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
261
Location
Clinton Twp
If it's a public school I would show up at the next school board meeting OCing (If you have a CPL) present copies of the laws to the board members and tell them the signs violate the state preemption law and if they refuse to remove them consider contacting an attorney to sue the district. I wouldn't think illegal signs carry any weight and PERSONALLY I would ignore them and go about my business as usual.
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Public schools get their charters directly from the state board of ed and not the city they serve -- so Grand Rapids Public School is NOT subordinate to the City of Grand Rapids.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Just a silly question from an outsider --

Does your school board set a tax separate from that of the county/city? If so, they are a unit of government at the local level.

If they get their funding via a tax set by the county/city, they are a subordinate agency of the county/city government and thus any policy they set must be approved by their superior level. Seems your preemption covers that.

In other words, it seems that unless your school board is run directly by a state agency (yes, some places have that due to total failure of the locals to meet standards) they have stepped deeply into it.

It could be that some weenie at the school board found the GFZ acts (federal or state) and jumped the gun in saying "Here's what we can use!" Sure would set a great example for the student body, no?

stay safe.
 

mecayuse

New member
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
5
Location
Michigan
Schools levy their own mileage apart from any city/township.

So by virtue of the ability to levy their own mileages, public schools become a separate, but not "local" local, form of government that is NOT covered under preemption for some fantastic reason. This means that ANY public school either by singular site or building or by whole system can preempt State of Michigan law allowing concealed or open carry on property or in parking lots and open carry by CPL holders inside buildings? If this is true I would bet we will not have to wait long before local governments find new and creative ways for any and all local agencies to somehow become these mystical and separate non local "local" forms of government. How is it that we haven't heard non-stop reports of scary bloodthirsty gun right exercising madmen being hauled off to the local stockade for attending his kids track and field meet? Is this just simply ANOTHER attempt to skirt the law and deny honest citizens their rights under the United States and Michigan Constitutions?
 

honest2pete

New member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
3
Location
Michigan
School districts can't create ordinances...they can only create policies and trespass you.

:uhoh:

So... "public" schools are actually non-local government agencies that operate locally by command of local school boards yet do so as private property owners with the ability to make up policy and regulation allowing them to trespass a citizen in possession of a firearm as long as there is proper signage to this intent and warning given? Incredible. Would then the "public" library be treated the same way if it was funded by private donations and public grants, built by "the league of concerned citizens for a spiffy local library" group then handed over to the municipality for administration purposes only? Wouldn't this become "private" property then? What about the "public" pool or a city park if the land was donated by a citizen but administered by the municipality? I am greatly confused now and wonder how would anyone know it was safe to carry openly or concealed anywhere? There are kids in the family that attend this school system. Am I to now assume that my rights are checked at the property line of any "public" agency that operates on "private" property so to speak? Yikes.
 

tenletters

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
20
Location
Michigan
In this case who could request an Attorney General opinion on the matter? Private citizens cannot and there doesn't seem to be a local unit of government to petition here, aside from the school board (who isn't a unit of government it seems), who would kprobably be very comfortable not have an AG opinion given.
 

Adams182

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
177
Location
Gobles, MI
What about the man who was at the Grand Rapids school to vote? or is there something special about it because he was voting.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
:eek:

The local public school system has posted "no firearms allowed" at the fenced borders of their properties and on all door entrances to their buildings. There are easily 10-12 signs on the high school property alone. The local city manager has been notified of the situation and has been given printouts of the MSP directives on PFZ's and open carry by CPL holders in those areas. The local city police chief was given the same MSP directive printouts last year. I had the understanding that making public property "off limits" was not allowed since it would be a pre-emption of State of Michigan law. Does this really mean a person cannot be on or in school property with a firearm being a CPL holder or otherwise, or, is this an invalid attempt at making public property off limits? If the latter is the case, what is the next step to correct the situation?

Which school district was this? I don't think this is GRPS but, I could be wrong. Feel free to post here or pm.
A post was made elsewhere, on another forum, that GRPS had posted their buildings. I am regularly in 3-4 buildings and have not seen any signs. I pm'd the op of that post and it was not personally seen by the op, rather it was something he had been told. So, if this was Grand Rapids Public Schools, I need some info so that I can approach administration.
To add to this discussion, Q is correct. Public Schools are a creature created by the state. Whether a school can trespass people, they can and do but it is usually under a local ordinance regarding the disturbance of meetings. Whether they can do so for the mere carrying of a firearm is a question that really would be something for a court to decide. My guess is that, as the law has been interpreted by the Michigan Court of Appeals, they may not. However, I think any action concerning this is liable to be eventually adjudicated, much as CADL will be.
 
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stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Just a silly question from an outsider --

Does your school board set a tax separate from that of the county/city? If so, they are a unit of government at the local level.

If they get their funding via a tax set by the county/city, they are a subordinate agency of the county/city government and thus any policy they set must be approved by their superior level. Seems your preemption covers that.

Thts what I was saying.

So by virtue of the ability to levy their own mileages, public schools become a separate, but not "local" local, form of government that is NOT covered under preemption for some fantastic reason. This means that ANY public school either by singular site or building or by whole system can preempt State of Michigan law allowing concealed or open carry on property or in parking lots and open carry by CPL holders inside buildings? If this is true I would bet we will not have to wait long before local governments find new and creative ways for any and all local agencies to somehow become these mystical and separate non local "local" forms of government. How is it that we haven't heard non-stop reports of scary bloodthirsty gun right exercising madmen being hauled off to the local stockade for attending his kids track and field meet? Is this just simply ANOTHER attempt to skirt the law and deny honest citizens their rights under the United States and Michigan Constitutions?

They still have to follow state law, you can CC in the parking lot according to MCL 28.425o
 
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