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Thread: Open Carry encounter at the Police Station

  1. #1
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    Open Carry encounter at the Police Station

    Here is how it went down.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7n3ocrdeNE

    --Moderator Note--

    Moved to correct state sub-forum, from Colorado to Nevada.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-03-2012 at 04:23 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Wrong state...

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

  3. #3
    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    PS.. it's private property, they had a sign, they asked you to leave.. In Colorado.. you'd be arrested for criminal trespass if you went back in..

    In Colorado , MOST of us respect property rights..

    FYI.. you have your first "dislike" on the video..

    *click*

    --Rob

    [edited out my nasty remarks.. lol]
    Last edited by Bellum_Intus; 07-02-2012 at 09:32 PM.
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
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    Nevada is just a few hundred miles to the South West buddy. Wrong state

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    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    PS.. it's private property, they had a sign, they asked you to leave.. In Colorado.. you'd be arrested for criminal trespass if you went back in..

    In Colorado , MOST of us respect property rights..

    FYI.. you have your first "dislike" on the video..

    *click*

    --Rob

    [edited out my nasty remarks.. lol]
    HAha well said rob. Just because the LEO was uneducated doesnt mean you should be, If it wasnt just about dinner time i bet i could jump on and find a Private Property law that is just about the same as Colorado, Here if your asked to leave, you leave, or your trespassing. Learn the Laws before trying to get hits on YT. makeing us all look bad.
    Last edited by LoneEchoWolf; 07-02-2012 at 10:23 PM.

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    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    actully it took me two minutes, now im off to dinner. enjoy the reading! im going to copy paste a section and the link, if your intrested in learning about your states laws give it a read. thanks!

    The Nevada trespassing law under NRS 207.200 outlaws the following actions:

    1.Going onto another persons’ property with the intent to annoy the owner or occupant or to commit a crime there,1 or


    2.Willfully going on or remaining on another person’s property after having been warned by the owner or occupant not to trespass.2


    In short, you may be arrested if you go or stay on somebody else’s land without their consent.
    heres the site i got it from http://www.shouselaw.com/nevada/tres...tml#definition

    Semper-Fi
    ~Wolf~

    Edit: I was in a rush and some reason thought it was Kali, (which automaticlly comes to mind, these are the ppl that call in MWAG calls on themselves) fixed it though, thanks for the nudge rob!
    Last edited by LoneEchoWolf; 07-02-2012 at 10:27 PM.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Amigo!
    That serve is likely to be quashed in court because you came to make service of process while openly carrying a firearm.
    Any attorney worth their salt would quash the serve as invalid on the basis of INTIMIDATION. (i.e., your carry of a firearm).

    But if you don't mind making bad serves and failing to provide excellent service to your client, be my guest.
    A good lawyer would have little trouble convincing a judge that you've just done sewer service.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Member: Process Servers Association of Colorado,
    Listed on: ServeNow
    Athame Investigations,
    Division of Colorado Bounty Hunter LLC.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    But if you don't mind making bad serves and failing to provide excellent service to your client, be my guest.
    A good lawyer would have little trouble convincing a judge that you've just done sewer service.
    BAM! .. My atty JUST replied to me about the same.. "I wish people would serve my clients like that, they'd walk" .. hahah!!

    (yes, I HAD to share the video with him lol )

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    yeah i agree
    Last edited by hammer6; 07-02-2012 at 10:32 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    BAM! .. My atty JUST replied to me about the same.. "I wish people would serve my clients like that, they'd walk" .. hahah!!

    (yes, I HAD to share the video with him lol )

    --Rob
    Howdy Pard!
    Hope you also shared my remarks with your lawyer. Maybe he could use a professional server. I can sure use more clients!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  11. #11
    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    nothing personal but the vid seemed more like a reality tv show than anything worth merit. plus what others stated, if asked to leave due to private property and signage- DO IT. otherwise enjoy some jailtime.
    HOPE FOR THE BEST, EXPECT THE WORST, PREPARE FOR WAR

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin Hutchison View Post
    Private property?

    Any place the government uccupies is considered public, whether it is leased or not.
    Walk into the PD open in Colorado and see how far you get.. And this is Colorado, not Nevada.. he posted in the wrong states forum..

    I personaly HATE (ppl in Colorado forum know how much too) these videos.. they make us look like a bunch of lunatics..
    Also, as MT had stated, they were on a professional service and VERY LIKELY lost their clients case for them.. real professional there..


    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

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    Regular Member CCinMaine's Avatar
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    In Maine it is illegal to enter any building that is "properly posted" as "gun free" also. And it looks like this guy is spamming every state forum he can...

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by m-taliesin View Post
    howdy pard!
    Hope you also shared my remarks with your lawyer. Maybe he could use a professional server. I can sure use more clients!

    Blessings,
    m-taliesin
    pm...
    =)
    Kenaz Tactical Group

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    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneEchoWolf View Post
    1.Going onto another persons’ property with the intent to annoy the owner or occupant or to commit a crime there,1 or
    Is going to annoy someone illegal in CO? Seriously. I think there are plenty of teen and early '20s young gentlemen that can be prosecuted for going someplace to "mess with people". I carry a super soaker of witch hazel for such during zombie crawls for just that reason. Well, I've considered it at least.

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    Walk into the PD open in Colorado and see how far you get.. --Rob
    Have done. Court house too.

    I don't recomend it in Denver...

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Have done. Court house too.

    I don't recomend it in Denver...
    I don't recommend it in Colorado Springs PD OR the El Paso County courthouse.. they WILL arrest you..

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Is going to annoy someone illegal in CO? Seriously. I think there are plenty of teen and early '20s young gentlemen that can be prosecuted for going someplace to "mess with people". I carry a super soaker of witch hazel for such during zombie crawls for just that reason. Well, I've considered it at least.
    No actually thats from the language in the Nevada laws. i believe i cite just above it actually but its NRS 207.200.

    1.Unless a greater penalty is provided pursuant to NRS 200.603, any person who, under circumstances not amounting to a burglary:

    a.Goes upon the land or into any building of another with intent to vex or annoy the owner or occupant thereof, or to commit any unlawful act; or

    b.Willfully goes or remains upon any land or in any building after having been warned by the owner or occupant thereof not to trespass,
    → is guilty of a misdemeanor. The meaning of this subsection is not limited by subsections 2 and 4.
    Last edited by LoneEchoWolf; 07-03-2012 at 02:09 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin Hutchison View Post
    Private property?

    Any place the government uccupies is considered public, whether it is leased or not.

    Nrs 202.3673
    Correct. A few people jumped the gun here. A police station by definition CANNOT be private property. If you are conducting lawful business, they cannot trespass you.

    We have a big problem with county and city governments here violating our state's preemption, and some guys are working on it, from every angle of attack. This video will be used against them, RIGHTLY, and I'm glad I got to see it.

    I can't comment on why it's posted in CO, except because perhaps the OP feels it's important in states with similar problems. As for the process serving, though I see no reason why process serving can't be armed. Police are armed, and we don't consider that intimidation. But I don't know if there are RULES for serving. Additionally, are the rules different if you serve yourself versus hiring a professional? I'm actually a little disappointed at the bad motives imputed to the OP in this forum before asking him any questions.
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-03-2012 at 02:13 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Correct. A few people jumped the gun here. A police station by definition CANNOT be private property. If you are conducting lawful business, they cannot trespass you.

    We have a big problem with county and city governments here violating our state's preemption, and some guys are working on it, from every angle of attack. This video will be used against them, RIGHTLY, and I'm glad I got to see it.

    I can't comment on why it's posted in CO, except because perhaps the OP feels it's important in states with similar problems. As for the process serving, though I see no reason why process serving can't be armed. Police are armed, and we don't consider that intimidation. But I don't know if there are RULES for serving. Additionally, are the rules different if you serve yourself versus hiring a professional? I'm actually a little disappointed at the bad motives imputed to the OP in this forum before asking him any questions.
    1. Laws in Colorado are not laws in Nevada
    2. OP posted in the wrong state
    3. His service was sloppy and would have killed a case here in Colorado
    4. Sometimes these videos do nothing but make OC advocates look like lunatics to the general populace
    5. Head on attacks such as this are like ******* in the wind..

    I personally don't care to take on the PD head on, I personally don't like bully advocacy, I prefer to advocate one encounter at a time, and educate people so then they can educate others.. once you get there.. VOTES will change the system.. Gestapo activism IMO is counterproductive..

    PS.. I wouldn't have said a word if this hadn't been posted in CO forum..



    AND... thank God I live in Colorado... =)

    --Rob
    Last edited by Bellum_Intus; 07-03-2012 at 02:43 AM.
    Kenaz Tactical Group

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneEchoWolf View Post
    No actually thats from the language in the Nevada laws. i believe i cite just above it actually but its NRS 207.200.
    Yep, I was curious if anyone knew of a similar law in CO.

  22. #22
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Additionally, are the rules different if you serve yourself versus hiring a professional?
    Howdy Mac702!
    You are correct there are both state and federal laws affecting process servers.
    High on the list, in every state I've looked at (admittedly few)

    1. A service of process must be made by an individual who is above the age of 18.
    2. The person performing service of process cannot be a party to the action.
    3. The person service process must be a U.S. citizen.

    Beyond that, it gets more complicated. Here in Colorado, we work under "Rule 4" of the civil code to serve process.
    Then there are federal rules too.

    But what I was aware the OP was doing, and likely nobody else caught, was an implied threat to charge the police officers with a felony!
    That's right. He alluded to it several times during the video. For those who do not know the federal law, I'll quote it here for edification:

    Title 18 U.S.C. Section 1501
    Whoever knowingly and willingly obstructs, resists or opposes any officer of the United States, or other person duly authorized, in serving, or attempting to serve or execute, any legal or judicial writ or process of any court of the United States...shall, except as otherwise provided by law, be fined not more than $300 or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

    Whoever Assaults or Wounds any officer or other person duly authorized, knowing him to be such officer or other person so duly authorized in serving or executing any such writ, rule, order, process, warrant, or other legal or judicial writ or process
    Shall except as otherwise provided by law, be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year or both.

    I do not know whether the officers he confronted were even aware of his implication, and this particular law is not frequently applied.
    But I caught what he was doing when he repeatedly stressed he had papers from a federal court. He was alluding to 18 U.S.C. - 1501.

    At least he knew enough about process service to throw that out there, suggesting that the law enforcement officers were violating that federal code by obstructing him from doing his service of process.

    Now to the point of "intimidation". Does a process server who carries openly break a law? No.
    Does a judge consider such to be intimidation? You betcha he does.
    Because of the economy, there has been an influx of sewer service technicians all across America.
    These guys have no ethical standards. All they want is the money for doing the serve.
    As a result, many will falsify an affidavit of service, get it notarized, and returned to the court when he never actually made the serve.
    He'll throw the documents down the sewer (Hence the 'sewer service' moniker) or otherwise dispose of the papers he never served.
    I've actually gotten a local process server fired for precisely this sort of nonsense.
    But back to intimidation:
    Because there are so many people doing sewer service, judges are getting quite... judicious... about verifying legitimacy of affidavits.
    They'd better be in order, and they'd better be cleanly delivered.
    Lawyers know that judges are looking at some process servers with a highly jaundiced eye.
    And a lawyer who knows that the client was approached by an armed man to serve a summons or subpeona, will make a case that the defendant was placed under duress by the intimidation presented by the process server being armed. Judges will likely view it as intimidation and throw out the service of process and there ain't squat anybody can do about it. He is, after all, the judge.

    A police officer is a sworn agent of the jurisdiction. A process server is a public servant, but has no authority other than to deliver court papers to the defendant.

    Here in Colorado, we have Colorado Revised Statute 18-1-701 that permits a process server to engage in activity that may otherwise be construed as criminal conduct if not performed by a public servant. For example, a process server can't be charged with stalking when all they want is to serve papers. They can't be charged with harassment for simply trying to deliver service of process. They can't be charged with trespassing or violation of private property signs because they have a right to access the front door of the defendant's dwelling. They do not enjoy any inherent right to enter a dwelling or place of business. The only saving grace in this instance is that he was entering a public place, i.e. the cop shop. But it won't stop a judge from ruling a server intimidated a defendant by carrying openly.

    As I said earlier... it ain't a violation of law, but the perception of the judge that matters.
    Cops tend to be intimidating on purpose. They are the authority that comes to compell a citizen to conform to law.
    We ain't cops, and ain't supposed to be intimidating. All we do is deliver court papers to a defendant. We have no authority beyond that.
    We don't arrest people, nor engage in enforcing law. A sworn officer of the law may require a sidearm because his enforcement efforts often come at peril to his life.
    We just deliver papers, and are unlikely to face such harrowing situations as a police officer.

    Since I am a professional process server, as well as a bounty hunter, I spend a great deal of my time studying my fields. I may carry a sidearm, but on a serve, it will be concealed. The vast majority of process servers, and bounty hunters too for that matter, do not carry deadly weapons. In almost all situations, police strength pepper spray is enough to handle a threat to the process server or bounty hunter.

    So it isn't about 2a rights but rather, professional conduct of a public servant trying to effect service of process.
    As I viewed the video, from the perspective of a professional process server, I felt (granted, it is my opinion) the behavior of this particular process server was totally out of line. And if he is currently a member of NAPPS, I believe he should be up for censure!

    Hope this helps to clarify... a claim of intimidation can invalidate a successful serve as compelling a defendant to accept by virtue of duress.
    Most serves are simply a knock at the door, handing the papers to the defendant and explaining they are being served with a subpeona, summons, complaint, writ or whatever the case might be.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 07-03-2012 at 03:53 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Correct. A few people jumped the gun here. A police station by definition CANNOT be private property. If you are conducting lawful business, they cannot trespass you.
    This is why cross-posting to other states isn't a good idea, at least without clearly identifying the jurisdiction it occurred in. But yes, what you said. I'm astonished how many people tried to chime in and call a police station private property. In what state is that true?

    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    As for the process serving, though I see no reason why process serving can't be armed.
    To expand on this, it is worth noting that in Nevada, wearing a gun OC is equivalent to wearing Jeans. It is legal, and unremarkable, and not a problem as long as you don't take it off and wave it around at people. At least that's what the law says (or, more accurately, doesn't say...in NV).

    The persons being served were being served for this same type of behavior the last time the plaintiffs were present. In other words, they were serving the cops because the cops are being sued, because they did the same stupid sh.. last time. This is going to be the great circular court case, where each time they serve the defendants, more cops sign up to be defendants next time.

    So, if OC is completely legal in this situation (it IS, let's just stipulate that), then there is no intimidation. Unless the process server was also using his jeans to intimidate the cops in the video.



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  24. #24
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    1. Laws in Colorado are not laws in Nevada
    2. OP posted in the wrong state
    3. His service was sloppy and would have killed a case here in Colorado
    4. Sometimes these videos do nothing but make OC advocates look like lunatics to the general populace
    5. Head on attacks such as this are like ******* in the wind..

    I personally don't care to take on the PD head on, I personally don't like bully advocacy, I prefer to advocate one encounter at a time, and educate people so then they can educate others.. once you get there.. VOTES will change the system.. Gestapo activism IMO is counterproductive..
    --Rob
    Howdy Rob!
    You nailed it right on the head pardner!
    There is that old saying: "Your right to swing your fist ceases where my nose begins!"
    The video shows us a guy who tries to shove his rights down other people's throats, thus infringing upon their rights.
    It certainly isn't the way to promote a positive image of open carry, and if anything, will likely result in new restrictions being added to the law.

    We were talking about the need to be ambassadors for open carry. By presenting a positive impression of the armed citizen in society at large.
    This sort of confrontational "chip on the shoulder" sort of behavior won't work any better than folks who run around trying to shove their particular view of religion down the throats of other citizens. Do they have the right of religious freedom? Sure they do. Does that mean they can trample my rights to religious freedom? No.

    We enjoy the right of free speech, but even on that are reasonable limits. You cannot slander another citizen without risking being sued.
    You cannot print something slanderous about another person without risking a charge of libel.
    But the instant topic is much less about law, and much more about karma.
    You throw your weight around, and sooner or later, somebody is going to throw it back at you.
    You try to bully others, and eventually a bigger bully comes along to even the score.
    On the other hand, you present a reasonable demeanor, and you'll get reasonable in return.
    If he wants to promote open carry, he should do so on his own time... not while on the client's business.
    Conflict of interest.
    It would be just as unprofessional as a bank teller trying to convert you to their religion while you only came in to make a deposit or check your balance.
    I predict that the process server in the video will find, in due course, his client list will shrink considerably.
    He is thinking entirely of his own agenda. And worse, he doesn't seem the least bit concerned how it will reflect back on his client.
    I'll bet a Morgan dollar his client hasn't the faintest idea what this guy did while carrying their papers.

    In my mind, not only is such behavior unprofessional, it isn't ethical either.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 07-03-2012 at 04:13 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post

    Now to the point of "intimidation". Does a process server who carries openly break a law? No.
    Does a judge consider such to be intimidation? You betcha he does.
    Point taken.

    With that said, the original case is about these same individuals being denied access to this same building for OC. So, the video of them getting blocked again while trying to serve the offenders from the first visit does have a certain beautiful irony to it. And it will support their original case to demonstrate that their original incident was not a one-off aberration, but in fact a systemic violation of civil liberties.

    Of course, I can imagine this case growing to the point that everyone in the building is a witness and defendant in said case. Lol.


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