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Thread: Driving through Virginia

  1. #1
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Driving through Virginia

    I will be driving through Virginia in a couple of days and just want to make certain that I know the laws. I have searched through the threads and just want to make sure.

    I have a valid Kentucky concealed carry license, do not have any felony charges/convictions and I never drink alcohol.

    Virginia has complete preemption of all firearm laws, so all laws are uniform across the state.
    I can carry openly with or without a permit or concealed because I have a permit that Virginia recognizes.
    I can carry into a place that serves alcohol with my firearm, most likely concealed.
    Signs do have the weight of law.
    Since I have a permit I can store my weapon any way I like in my vehicle.

    I do not have to inform an officer that I am carrying, but if I am asked then I must provide my license only if I am carrying concealed.
    I can legally record an officer with or without is consent or knowledge.

    This is how I interpreted the limited information I read about your fine state. If I am wrong, I would greatly appreciate a correction. I would also appreciate any other information that I may need to know such as any other right I have in a police encounter.

    Thanks in advance for any help.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    This gets debated all the time. My opinion is that the trespassing statute very clearly tells you what you should know.

    Short answer is, if you know the place doesn't like you having a gun there because of a sign, then do the responsible thing and don't bring your gun in there. Don't start playing games of semantics with signs or no signs, and whether they have the force of law behind them. Its their private property, respect their wishes as you would want someone to do on your property.
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Basic recap looks pretty good, except as cited above abut signs.

    Lots of little quirks concerning prohibited areas--courthouses, church while church is in session, schools. Still some debate over lessee/lessor rights as to state premption and applicability of certain "regulations" imposed by various types of "authorities", i.e. some hospitals, colleges, public/private entities, etc. ad nauseum.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I thank everyone who responded.

    I am grateful for that corrections. In Kentucky "no firearm" rules/signs are usually in a list of rules or in a clutter of signs, making it difficult to notice at a glance. I avoid places that do not respect my self defense every time I have the option, but the signs are not always noticed.

    I do not think I will have any problems on my way through Virginia.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  6. #6
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    A couple of notes:

    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    Basic recap looks pretty good, except as cited above abut signs.

    Lots of little quirks concerning prohibited areas--courthouses, church while church is in session, schools. Still some debate over lessee/lessor rights as to state premption and applicability of certain "regulations" imposed by various types of "authorities", i.e. some hospitals, colleges, public/private entities, etc. ad nauseum.
    The church carry question was settled by the AG's opinion that self-defense is a lawful reason to carry, even in a church service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    Beware.....

    Va. § 18.2-308

    section J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.
    OP stated quite clearly: "I never drink alcohol," rendering moot your warning against doing so while carrying concealed.

    TFred

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    He said he doesn't drink alcohol.

    Oops, sorry Tfred! Mea culpa on the church rule. Still an AG opinion and not the law. It is still illegal based on the statute, with a legal "out", similar to the concealed handgun laws.

    (thread derail ended)
    Last edited by riverrat10k; 07-04-2012 at 03:49 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    [snip]

    OP stated quite clearly: "I never drink alcohol," rendering moot your warning against doing so while carrying concealed.

    TFred
    yep TFred, those of us who bother to read everything stated knew we didn't need to comment on the OP's statement about being able to carry concealed into a place serving alcohol.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    He said he doesn't drink alcohol.

    Oops, sorry Tfred! Mea culpa on the church rule. Still an AG opinion and not the law. It is still illegal based on the statute, with a legal "out", similar to the concealed handgun laws.

    (thread derail ended)
    I respectfully but absolutely disagree with any assertion that it is still (or ever has been) illegal. The law states that it is illegal "without good and sufficient reason". How can anyone say that self-defense is not a good and sufficient reason with any more authority than any other person can say that it is, especially given our current climate that OC for the purpose of self-defense is generally accepted and legal throughout the entire state. There would be no legal reason to support that act being illegal in a church and nowhere else.

    That was the purpose of the AG opinion, not to say that the law didn't mean what it says, but to clarify that what it says does allow for the carry of self-defensive weapons by law abiding citizens. As many others have posed, what reason could be any better or more sufficient than to defend one's life from a violent criminal attack?

    Perhaps just semantics, but very important semantics.

    BTW, I firmly believe that as long as things remain stable or better on the SCOTUS, we are heading in this direction for several Federal statutes as well (such as carry at the Post Office), because the Federal statutes generally include exceptions for "other lawful purposes", which self-defense CLEARLY is - just not acknowledged by a high enough court yet.

    TFred

    ETA: I re-read your post, and I understand better what you were saying... that it is a general prohibition EXCEPT for the good and sufficient reason. This is why the whole section on church carry is useless and should be deleted... it's unclear, confusing, and unnecessary, since there are multiple other laws that would still cover a criminal carrying in a church service anyway.
    Last edited by TFred; 07-04-2012 at 04:19 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member B. Reddy's Avatar
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    09jisaac-

    Enjoy your drive thru Virginia. It looks like both our commonwealths are singing from the same hymnal.

    From our Attorney General's clarification of a 2010 amended law: http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%...1%20Newman.pdf

    "You also ask whether a center console, glove compartment or any other "container or
    compartment'' must be locked to constitute a "secured container or compartment." The legislative history
    of the 2010 amendment shows that the container or compartment storing the handgun need not be locked
    for the exception to apply. When § 18.2-308 was amended to include § 18.2-308(B)(10), "locked in a
    container or compattment'' was considered as possible statutory language; however, "secured in a
    container or compartment" was the wording that was ultimately adopted. By choosing "secured" instead
    of "locked," the General Assembly evinced its intention that a handgun may be carried in a vehicle without
    requiring the container or compartment storing it to be locked."


    and also:

    "It is my opinion that, provided the handgun is properly secured in a container or compartment
    within the vehicle, persons who may lawfully possess a firearm but have not been issued a concealed
    weapons permit may possess, in a vehicle, a handgun that is loaded and the handgun may remain within
    reach of a driver or passenger under such conditions."

    That should prevent any legal hassles for your passenger(s) who may not have a CHP if you have to leave the car briefly to, oh, I don't know, maybe re-supply your stash of Slim-Jims?

    Happy Independence Day!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Nice job, everyone, but where are your manners? Everybody forget to say "Welcome"? Nobody ask where the OP will be so we can figure out if a meet&greet could be arranged?

    09jisaac - Welcome to Virginia. When will you be here, and where? Asking so we can see if anybody is local and if so to see if you are interested in setting up a meet&greet.

    From what I hear you will find Virginia a bit more relaxed than home.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  12. #12
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    snip

    Perhaps just semantics, but very important semantics.

    snip

    ETA: I re-read your post, and I understand better what you were saying... that it is a general prohibition EXCEPT for the good and sufficient reason. This is why the whole section on church carry is useless and should be deleted... it's unclear, confusing, and unnecessary, since there are multiple other laws that would still cover a criminal carrying in a church service anyway.
    I think you explained it better than I, and make a better arguement for how the law should be read.
    I think this is either a "feel good" statute or a "pile on the charges" statute. Nor more, no less.

    Thx!

  13. #13
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Nice job, everyone, but where are your manners? Everybody forget to say "Welcome"? Nobody ask where the OP will be so we can figure out if a meet&greet could be arranged?

    09jisaac - Welcome to Virginia. When will you be here, and where? Asking so we can see if anybody is local and if so to see if you are interested in setting up a meet&greet.

    From what I hear you will find Virginia a bit more relaxed than home.

    stay safe.
    I will be, most likely, just be traveling through the western most tip of of Virginia as I have to meet my sister at Pikeville, KY. I am heading from Louisa, Ky to Myrtle Beach, SC. I think we will be taking 23 all the way down. I do not know because I am not in charge of the directions, for some reason.

    I hate to pass up an opportunity to make a new friend/friends but I do not think we will be stopping much. I would like to meet up, but I just don't see it happening.

    Thanks for the offer, I hope one day I can take one (or multiple) of you all up on it.

    Also, thanks for all the information. I am confident I can carry a firearm in your fine state without getting crossways of the law.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I hate to pass up an opportunity to make a new friend/friends but I do not think we will be stopping much. I would like to meet up, but I just don't see it happening.

    Thanks for the offer, I hope one day I can take one (or multiple) of you all up on it.

    Also, thanks for all the information. I am confident I can carry a firearm in your fine state without getting crossways of the law.
    That's the beauty of the internet. You can still make new friends and not stop. You don't have to be planning a trip to come over here and visit.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    He said he doesn't drink alcohol.

    Oops, sorry Tfred! Mea culpa on the church rule. Still an AG opinion and not the law. It is still illegal based on the statute, with a legal "out", similar to the concealed handgun laws.

    (thread derail ended)
    I need to go check this but as I recall, the way the law is written regarding churches in session and carrying is for "good and sufficient reason" [not sure that is the exact verbiage]. In other words, I do not think the word is "shall not...".
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    I need to go check this but as I recall, the way the law is written regarding churches in session and carrying is for "good and sufficient reason" [not sure that is the exact verbiage]. In other words, I do not think the word is "shall not...".
    Your memory is good - rather than "shall not" it reads "shall be."

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    Past church shootings and the enriched environment provide "good and sufficient reason" for me.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    1) That's the best summary I've seen.

    2) An AG's opinion is just that, an opinion; it's an informed opinion (just like that of any other lawyer) that will be given some deference by a judge, who will be no more bound by that opinion than by mine, and will ultimately do what he thinks is right (in theory). If someone calls the cops because you're OC'ing during the worship service, you can be arrested, charged, and if the Commonwealth's Attorney wishes to prosecute, you can be convicted. You may have a very good defense, and a right to appeal. Save up about six thousand bucks, though, to pay legal fees and expenses for dealing with the process.

    3) Vote with your dollars; if a place has a sign up that says you don't have the right to defend yourself and your family in their establishment, don't spend money there.

    4) The Kaintuck Territory CHP is good in Va. If demanded by a law enforcement officer, and you're carrying concealed, you must produce the CHP and a photo-identification produced by a governmental agency.

    5) Note that Virginia does cities, counties, and towns differently than any other state. In some places you can be stopped by a sheriff's deputy AND a local cop; in others, only by a deputy, in others, only by a cop, and anywhere by a state trooper in addition to the others. If a jurisdiction has a police department, then the sheriff's deputies do not have general arrest powers within that jurisdiction; otherwise, the sheriff is the chief law enforcement officer. A "town" is entirely within a county. A county may have its own PD, and the town may or may not. A "city" is independent of any county, and will have its own PD or sheriff, but there are no county LEO's with jurisdiction in a city. So the car that stops you may be a white police car, a white sheriff's traffic control car, a brown sheriff's car, a grey and blue VSP trooper's car, or an unmarked car. The flashing lights will be blue, red, or blue and red, depending on the nature of the jurisdiction. Is that clear as mud?
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Now you have it 09!

    This site is blessed with legal knowledge including our own legal scholar (User).

    I generally try to double check everything I get on the net except User's posts. His information is written in stone.

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    Regular Member optiksguy's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    If a jurisdiction has a police department, then the sheriff's deputies do not have general arrest powers within that jurisdiction; otherwise, the sheriff is the chief law enforcement officer.
    Hope this is not a silly question, but what's the benefit (to the locality) of having a police department as opposed to a sheriff ? I like the idea of a sheriff being accountable through elections. Is it simply so law enforcement in the county is answerable to the Board of Supervisors and not an independently elected sheriff?

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optiksguy View Post
    Hope this is not a silly question, but what's the benefit (to the locality) of having a police department as opposed to a sheriff ? I like the idea of a sheriff being accountable through elections. Is it simply so law enforcement in the county is answerable to the Board of Supervisors and not an independently elected sheriff?

    Without getting too deep into the technicalities - a Sheriff's Dept that only has to provide courtroom security (bailiffs), run the jail, and serve civil processes is a lot less headache and cost than one that is "full service".

    There is also that other matter of who gets to be the boss over whom. Do something (or your officers do it) that irritates the citizenry when Chief of Police and they can put pressure on the BoS to fire you. They can also jerk your chain with budgets and allocation of "common" resources. Sheriff can only be not reelected. He gets to tell the BoS what his budget will be and has some leverage in making them cough up enough money to meet it.

    Also, iirc a Sheriff can arbitrarily fire any Deputy, while a Chief of Police has to follow county HR policy.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  21. #21
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's the beauty of the internet. You can still make new friends and not stop. You don't have to be planning a trip to come over here and visit.
    That is true, but I enjoy putting faces to the user names.

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Is that clear as mud?
    Just about.

    I always try not to do business with anyone who thinks that a sign will reduce crime but sometimes that is difficult.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    welcome to VA. the laws in VA are very current with laws in KY. thanks in both for citizens that react.

    if you are going to Myrtle beach i would worry more about NC and SC. especially SC, from what i understand there is no OC in that state, and they do have some funny ways of dealing
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    welcome to VA. the laws in VA are very current with laws in KY. thanks in both for citizens that react.

    if you are going to Myrtle beach i would worry more about NC and SC. especially SC, from what i understand there is no OC in that state, and they do have some funny ways of dealing
    That is correct - SC does not allow OC even with a permit.
    http://www.opencarry.org/sc.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is correct - SC does not allow OC even with a permit.
    http://www.opencarry.org/sc.html
    One of only seven left. A dishonorable minority.

    TFred


  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    One of only seven left. A dishonorable minority.

    TFred

    Eight (8) if you include the State of Utter Despair = Washington D.C.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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