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Thread: illegal Tahoe roadblock

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    illegal Tahoe roadblock

    Off-topic, not OC. However, on-topic to my illegal seizure of Dec. 18, 2010 in which the cops, under the same false authority to seize, stole my pistol, video camera, and notebook.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG7niM9PzeE

    The dude in the shorts with no indication of authority besides the word POLICE on his vest, threatened false arrest. He said he could detain me for one hour. According to NRS 171.123, a LEO can detain for suspicion of a crime or violation of parole or probation.
    Last edited by Yard Sale; 07-05-2012 at 11:15 AM.

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    Off-topic, not OC. However, on-topic to my illegal seizure of Dec. 18, 2010 in which the cops, under the same false authority to seize, stole my pistol, video camera, and notebook.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG7niM9PzeE

    The dude in the shorts with no indication of authority besides the word POLICE on his vest, threatened false arrest. He said he could detain me for one hour. According to NRS 171.123, a LEO can detain for suspicion of a crime or violation of parole or probation.
    Cops lie and threaten… that’s what they do and that’s what they are accustomed to doing. In order to detain (LEGALLY), a cop must have reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed and YOU are the culprit… WE all know that. With that “reasonable suspicion” a cop may detain you for up to an hour (while he “looks for” probable cause to arrest you)… but, without RAS, the cop can go pack sand. Screw the cops.

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Encounter
    (No Basis for "Seizure")
    4th Amendment Seizure
    (4th Amendment "Seizure" of a "Free Person")
    DON'T - STOP
    DON'T - DEMAND
    DON'T - USE FORCE
    DO - ASK TO TALK
    DO - ASK FOR ID
    DO - ASK FOR EXPLANATION
    Detention/Frisk
    Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 21, 88 S.Ct. 1868 (1968)
    "Reasonable Articulable Suspicion"
    Arrest
    "Probable Cause"
    Detention
    "Reasonable Articulable Suspicion"
    To believe that:
    (1) a crime has been committed
    (2) a crime is being committed, or
    (3) a crime is about to be committed; AND
    (4) the person about to be stopped is the person who did one of the above.

    The Procedure:
    (1) After identifying as a police officer
    (2) an officer may stop a person:
    _(a) in a public place
    _(b) for a reasonable ____period of time
    _(c) when the officer ____reasonably ____suspects that such ____person is ____committing, is about ____to commit, or has ____committed a crime.
    (3) Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped
    Frisk
    AFTER - Lawful Detention "Reasonable Articulable Suspicion"
    (1) The officer reasonablybelieves
    (2) that the lawfully detained person
    (3) is armed and/or dangerous or that the officer or another is in danger of physical injury
    (4) the officer may search such person for weapons or any instrument, article orsubstance readily capable of causing physical injury and of a sort not ordinarily carried in public places by law abiding persons.
    (5) If the officer finds such a weapon or instrument, or any other property possession of which he reasonably believes may constitute the commission of a crime, or which may constitute a threat to his safety,
    (6) the officer may take it and keep it until the completion of the questioning;
    (7) at which time he shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest the person so questioned
    Probable Cause - a "fair probability" that a crime has been committed and the person being seized committed it

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    Smile

    Hey should I cross-post this to the Colorado sub-forum?

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    Hey should I cross-post this to the Colorado sub-forum?
    Now that right there is friggin funny !!!!

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Were you OC?

    Good job on standing your ground.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Good stuff. OT or not, these are relevant, and informative.

    Hindsight being 20/20, the only thing I can see that would have been better is if the rider, upon being directed to the secondary inspection, had immediately asked if he was being detained, and if so, for RAS of what crime? Make them commit to it right then. That way, they can't try to muddy it later. That way, there is no question that it is unlawful detention. He did ask if it was an order though, which is almost as good. I have become comfortable with the term "Lawful Order". As in "Are you giving me a Lawful Order?". That should nail down the "under color of law" part of my complaint.

    Otherwise, the rider was calm, cool, and frustrating. Nice work.

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    There is no reason to ask, "Am I being detained." It's akin to asking, "Am I being raped?" I stated my desire to leave and I asked if I could leave, thus ensuring it was not a consensual encounter. I even asked if Shorty Pants was demanding to search inside my helmet.

    Things I did wrong:

    I don't think I made it clear enough that I didn't consent to a search of my helmet by the Sgt.

    When the Sgt. asked for "I.D." I should have clarified whether he was requesting identification or demanding a driver's license.

    I should have lawyered up sooner. I was one or two questions away from, "I do not consent to questioning. I want to speak with my attorney."

    I should have gotten Shorty Pants' name, badge, and department instead of taking the Sgt's word for it that I could get it from him and relying on my camera.

    I should have insisted on an incident report number. "Get on the radio and request one from dispatch."

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    Good video.

    Raising your visor is akin to making someone in a car lower their window. They claim that it's a lawful order upheld by the supreme court. I had several officers and a supervisor claim they could make me lower my window at my last DUI checkpoint.

    I would have also thrown in with the 'no questions' part, stating you choose not to answer any questions without an attorney, and that you are invoking your right to silence, and that you understand checkpoints like these in NV are consensual and that you do not consent. There's an argument that these stops be unconstitutional based on they try to get people to self incriminate before being read their Miranda rights.

    I think asking "am I being detained" is a good question. Others argue it's not. I think when they clearly state to you that you are, you have a clear marker, for the 1 hour time limit they have to arrest you, and that they then, at that time, need to have RAS or PC. Remember, they do not need to tell you the RAS/PC...only explain it to a judge in court should it go that far. They can detain you the full hour and never tell you why - but getting them to declare that they are detaining...keeps you from 'fleeing' charges should you leave, etc. Then, once you're officially detained, stating your name, and invoking your right to silence, and asking for an attorney, and getting them to explain why...that's all in your favor. Even asking to be read your rights - that shows them that you're not just handing them complete control. They seem to think that once you're detained they can do what they want...but to me that immediately starts the offensive game for people who know and exercise their rights....just my 2 cents.

    It sucks he made you show your ID. There was no reason at all for him to do that. He by protocol should have first determined some suspicion you were under the influence, like look at my finger, or asking you to breath into his hand etc. At least you weren't handcuffed and had your ID taken from you without consent. I never got sent to 'secondary screening' type thing...where you were sent. They surrounded me and kept demanding I lower my window. They brought a supervisor to me, and threatened me with arrest all while holding up traffic.(which I'm sure they'd have likely charged some crime against me had they not released me when I eventually lowered my window). The raise visor...show me your id - it's their little power trip. They slowly creep in further and further on infringing rights.

    Possibly stating your name, rather than giving him a license would have been a good first step - as required by state law that IF he claimed to have RAS, all one must do is state their name. However he would have likely asked for your licence, since you were indeed driving.

    Demanding anything is likely to cause trouble. So you asking for an incident number the way you did seemed appropriate to me. All you can try is to fill out an internal affairs report, you had the supervisor's info, who from then on was in charge, and responsible for the first officer...and can try to follow that up and show how they detained you unlawfully. Really - this sort of activism is best. Without damage, they're not likely to change, and that's sad. But a video like this shows us all how to respond and gives us great example to mimic.

    I have a 8 year old cell, which is falling apart, and I'm going to be purchasing a new one...that I can hopefully tape stuff like this and upload. These resources are invaluable! It so bugs me that even when you asked the first officer why you were pulled to secondary screening, he didn't really have an answer (or i couldn't hear one). The sgt seemed professional, but him asking for your ID was lame - but as soon as he got that part of you to give in...he said you were free to go. It's just sick how they seem to get off on their power grab from small things.

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    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    Thank goodness that cop was there at the end to wave you out of the parking lot, to think what may have happened if he wasn't there...they make such great traffic directors...

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    may I ask you what kind of camera/set up that is? I ride a CBR and am interested in doing some recording, my only transportation is a bike and concealing in 100 plus weather is arduous.

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    you don't say "no questions" you say "I'll answer any question you have in court. Are you willing to answer my questions? "

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    chrsjhnsn, Contour ROAM with the rotating helmet mount, aka flat surface mount.

    davidmcbeth, but I won't answer any questions in court. I will not be compelled to testify against myself at the scene of the fishing expedition or later in the prosecution.



    To any Reno area people: The next roadblock is coming Labor Day weekend. Contact me if you want to do something about it.
    Last edited by Yard Sale; 07-09-2012 at 12:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlittlerobot View Post
    I think asking "am I being detained" is a good question. Others argue it's not. I think when they clearly state to you that you are, you have a clear marker, for the 1 hour time limit they have to arrest you, and that they then, at that time, need to have RAS or PC. Remember, they do not need to tell you the RAS/PC...only explain it to a judge in court should it go that far. They can detain you the full hour and never tell you why - but getting them to declare that they are detaining...keeps you from 'fleeing' charges should you leave, etc. Then, once you're officially detained, stating your name, and invoking your right to silence, and asking for an attorney, and getting them to explain why...that's all in your favor.
    One is detained the moment one submits to a show of authority. Adult male with a gun and a vest that says POLICE holds up his hand, I stop, I'm detained. Settled law. They can detain for suspicion of a crime for up to an hour. Detaining beyond the initial stop, absent suspicion, is false arrest.

    They seem to think that once you're detained they can do what they want
    Of course, that's the major problem with suspicionless roadblocks.

    The raise visor...show me your id - it's their little power trip. They slowly creep in further and further on infringing rights.
    Yup, that's why I got clarification it was coerced, not consensual.

    Possibly stating your name, rather than giving him a license would have been a good first step - as required by state law that IF he claimed to have RAS, all one must do is state their name. However he would have likely asked for your licence, since you were indeed driving.
    Yup, I blew it.

    All you can try is to fill out an internal affairs report
    That's not all. I was deprived of my rights under color of law. 42 U.S.C. § 1983

    It's just sick how they seem to get off on their power grab from small things.
    Well, that's why they are in their chosen line of work.

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    I should have lawyered up sooner. I was one or two questions away from, "I do not consent to questioning. I want to speak with my attorney."
    Something I've found to be a bit more on the non confrontational side..

    "Sorry officer, I don't answer questions without my attorney present".
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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    What are you apologizing for?

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    With the correct look on your face, its non confrontational, yet snarky..
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post

    That's not all. I was deprived of my rights under color of law. 42 U.S.C. § 1983
    Well, post your filed complaint; interested to see how that turns out for ya.

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    Correct me if I am wrong - I would love to be in this instance, but don't you have to show a motorcycle license whenever requested by a police officer? Which is a form of ID....so really you have no choice in that one, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong - I would love to be in this instance, but don't you have to show a motorcycle license whenever requested by a police officer? Which is a form of ID....so really you have no choice in that one, eh?
    I would not swear to it, but I would think you would only have to show a DL if you were actually stopped for an observed violation. It is further my understanding that they can't just pull you over and ask for "your papers please".

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    NRS 483.350 License to be carried and surrendered upon demand; limitation on conviction. Every licensee shall have his or her driver’s license in his or her immediate possession at all times when driving a motor vehicle and shall manually surrender the license for examination, upon demand, to a justice of the peace, a peace officer, or a deputy of the Department. However, no person charged with violating this section shall be convicted if he or she produces in court or the office of the arresting officer a driver’s license theretofore issued to the person and valid at the time of the demand.

    [Part 20:190:1941; A 1953, 191; 1955, 65]—(NRS A 1969, 544)

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    So they don't need RAS or PCto demand it, but if you refuse they can cite you, however it is a guaranteed throw out at court. I wonder if you could require the cop to appear before showing it?

    Of course, they might impound your vehicle for driving it without a license...

    Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    NRS 483.350 License to be carried and surrendered upon demand; limitation on conviction. Every licensee shall have his or her driver’s license in his or her immediate possession at all times when driving a motor vehicle and shall manually surrender the license for examination, upon demand, to a justice of the peace, a peace officer, or a deputy of the Department. However, no person charged with violating this section shall be convicted if he or she produces in court or the office of the arresting officer a driver’s license theretofore issued to the person and valid at the time of the demand.

    [Part 20:190:1941; A 1953, 191; 1955, 65]—(NRS A 1969, 544)
    However, this law does not give an officer the authority to arbitrarily pull you over and ask to see your license. It must be with regard to a violation observed by the officer. It was not even the same officer that told you to pull to the side of the road. It was very apparent that he was not asking you for your DL with regard to operating the vehicle, but strictly for ID. He said "do you have any ID?" Otherwise he would have asked for registration and insurance as well. Also, he did not "run" your license he simply looked at it and gave it back to you which is another indicator that he was not asking for your operating permit but just a form of identification. I do not remember them running your plate either, did they?

    It seems to me the above cite does not apply in this case. All in all though ya done good Bubba.

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    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    This is the one I was recalling...

    NRS 486.361 Driver’s license to be surrendered on demand. Every person driving a motorcycle shall manually deliver his or her license to drive a motorcycle to any police officer or court upon request therefor by such officer or court.
    (Added to NRS by 1971, 1471)

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    Last edited by OC-moto450r; 08-02-2012 at 06:01 PM.

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