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Thread: Yet another restaurant carry question

  1. #1
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    Yet another restaurant carry question

    I've looked for an answer to this question for a while, but my google skills seem to be failing me. Anyway, I have an edge case question concerning carrying (open or concealed) at a restaurant that serves alcohol. First, let's review the law.


    § 14‑269.3.* Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.
    (a)******* It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.* Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    (b)******* This section shall not apply to the following:
    (1)******* A person exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14‑269;
    (2)******* The owner or lessee of the premises or business establishment;
    (3)******* A person participating in the event, if he is carrying a gun, rifle, or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event; and
    (4)******* A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event. (1977, c. 1016, s. 1; 1981, c. 412, s. 4, c. 747, s. 66; 1993, c. 539, s. 165; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)


    The issue I have is the following: "carrying weapons INTO assemblies and establishments..."

    I recently went out to dinner with my family (not carrying), and noticed that it had outdoor seating available. My concern is wether or not it is legal to carry there, OUTSIDE the restaurant, but still on the premises. From reviewing other laws, the word "premises" appears occasionally. The lack of premises here suggests that you can carry in the parking lot, just not INTO the establishment. Could one argue that the outdoor seating is just on the premise but not inside the restaurant?


    There are 2 scenarios here I think. The first is that the outdoor seating area is a covered area directly attached to the restaurant. I think it could be seen as a "porch", whether screened in or not, and could probably be considered inside. The second scenario is if the tables & chairs are not under any coverings and are not attached to the restaurant in any way. Some restaurants have some patio looking setup, but I've seen some that just have an outdoor area with seating available.


    What do you guys think about these situations?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Are they serving food? Are they serving alcohol? Are they licensed to sell Alcohol for consumption?

    While I do not believe the law is constitutional, I would not carry in the case you described.

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    By NC law it is part of the premise. It is designated as such so it allows them to serve alcohol outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Are they serving food? Are they serving alcohol? Are they licensed to sell Alcohol for consumption?
    In this scenario, yes, yes and yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    While I do not believe the law is constitutional, I would not carry in the case you described.
    I wouldn't want to be the case law that settles this issue, so I wouldnt carry either. I'm more concerned with the legality of the situation. This may open up options for people dining with their families in fair weather. It may also give restaurants some leeway to serve legally armed customers.


    Quote Originally Posted by NC-Heel View Post
    By NC law it is part of the premise. It is designated as such so it allows them to serve alcohol outside.
    I would assume its part of the premise, but the law doesn't say "... into assemblies and establishments, or upon the premises of said assemblies and establishments,..." Therefore, if the outside eating areas are not actually considered being "in" the establishment, it should be legal to just carry on the premise of an assembly or establishment that sells & serves alcohol. You would just so happen to be eating.


    Another way to think about it would be the following: I order takeout from Applebee's, bring the food to the parking lot and eat it with some friends in the back of my pickup truck. In that case, you could carry, because you never entered the establishment. What would the difference be between that and the establishment offering a more formal place to enjoy the food?
    Last edited by Witherworth; 07-06-2012 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witherworth View Post
    In this scenario, yes, yes and yes.




    I wouldn't want to be the case law that settles this issue, so I wouldnt carry either. I'm more concerned with the legality of the situation. This may open up options for people dining with their families in fair weather. It may also give restaurants some leeway to serve legally armed customers.




    I would assume its part of the premise, but the law doesn't say "... into assemblies and establishments, or upon the premises of said assemblies and establishments,..." Therefore, if the outside eating areas are not actually considered being "in" the establishment, it should be legal to just carry on the premise of an assembly or establishment that sells & serves alcohol. You would just so happen to be eating.


    Another way to think about it would be the following: I order takeout from Applebee's, bring the food to the parking lot and eat it with some friends in the back of my pickup truck. In that case, you could carry, because you never entered the establishment. What would the difference be between that and the establishment offering a more formal place to enjoy the food?
    By definition an "establishment" does not require four walls and a roof:

    An establishment is a single business location of a company which is engaged in a single activity.

    You pretty much answered your own question as you are eating your food in a "parking lot" and not part of the "eating establishment".
    Last edited by 94 at Large; 07-07-2012 at 03:47 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witherworth View Post
    Another way to think about it would be the following: I order takeout from Applebee's, bring the food to the parking lot and eat it with some friends in the back of my pickup truck. In that case, you could carry, because you never entered the establishment. What would the difference be between that and the establishment offering a more formal place to enjoy the food?

    The difference is that you can't order an alcoholic beverage "to go" at an Applebee's.

    The paring lot is not included in Applebee's liquor license, whereas the outdoor dining part of a restaurant that has a deck, or outdoor "cafe" dining IS covered under their liquor license.

    The definition of "premises" under NC law included ONLY those areas where the establishment's liquor license extends...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    The law concerning carry of weapons in an establishment with on premises license may not define the premises but the laws that govern a business that has an on premises license clearly define where and how alcohol can and can't be served. You can get to-go and eat in the parking lot while armed unless the establishment has filed for a special event permit and clearly defined and marked what areas alcohol will be sold and consumed (think when a establishment like Hooters has a bikini contest in the parking lot and sells plastic bottle or can beer). I have restaurants with ABC licenses and trust me I know the statutes and your quest for a patio loophole does not hold water.

    Just because something is not specifically defined in one set of laws does not mean it has not been defined somewhere else. The handgun statute says premise but does not define it. You consider that to be a vague description open to interpretation but if you go to the statutes that define the term "on premise" in definition to a restaurant that serves alcohol it is clearly defined.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I can't imagine buying a higher than normal meal, and then eating it in the parking lot. I can usually find a no alcohol restaurant somewhere and then there is always IHOP. Not the Ritz, but better than a parking lot. That would be like going to Pizza Hut and having your Pizza delivered in the lot.

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    Do you not have to walk into the restaurant in order to access their outside seating? Irregardless, since they are legally allowed to sell and serve alcohol to people eating outside, I can't see how it would not be considered part of the establishment, as they have a specific, and well defined area where they're allowed to serve. In other words, they will not bring you a beverage while waiting in the parking lot.

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    I had a different scenario in mind for a better question, to me the outside patio where food and drink are available is without a doubt (in my mind) covered under the current (crap) law.

    My scenario is, if a restaurant is not currently serving (say they don't serve alcohol on Sunday between 6am and 1pm), are you now OK? Came to mind yesterday while eating and it appeared the bar section of the restaurant was closed (didn't ask if they still served, but it doesn't matter to the question since the premise would be they are not).

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    Quote Originally Posted by REDFIVE48 View Post
    I had a different scenario in mind for a better question, to me the outside patio where food and drink are available is without a doubt (in my mind) covered under the current (crap) law.

    My scenario is, if a restaurant is not currently serving (say they don't serve alcohol on Sunday between 6am and 1pm), are you now OK? Came to mind yesterday while eating and it appeared the bar section of the restaurant was closed (didn't ask if they still served, but it doesn't matter to the question since the premise would be they are not).
    Or how about a restaurant without any licquor license that allows customers to brown bag their booze to be served by the restaurant staff? Technically, they are not selling for consumption, because they are not selling it. They are charging the customer to pour their own beverage for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Or how about a restaurant without any licquor license that allows customers to brown bag their booze to be served by the restaurant staff? Technically, they are not selling for consumption, because they are not selling it. They are charging the customer to pour their own beverage for them.
    I dunno I believe unless it is a private club brown bagging is a no no. But I could be wrong, maybe I will call NC alcohol enforcement tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I dunno I believe unless it is a private club brown bagging is a no no. But I could be wrong, maybe I will call NC alcohol enforcement tomorrow.
    You may very well be right. I honestly don't remember seeing this anywhere but a club, and even then it was when I was a kid.

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    I open carried into an eating joint a few months back. The county is dry. Only restaurants in city limits are able to sell and serve alcohol.

    A couple leo's were in the restaurant at the same time. I looked over 2 tables and a couple was pouring wine into a glass. It was brown bagged in. My wife pointed it out.

    I went home and re-read the restaurant law. Seems pretty clear to me. "SOLD and consumed...'
    If you get to pick one or the other instead of both, this would also make it illegal for anyone to carry in a grocery store, because alcohol is SOLD there, but not consumed.

    As with anything govt does, you know its a total disaster. If there intent was to make it so you cant carry into a bar full of drunks, they just failed with the law... because it seems quite legal to carry into a bar full of drunks, as long as the alcohol wasnt sold to them there.
    As if scribbling a few words on paper makes society function as our masters want it to anyway...

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brutus1776 View Post
    I open carried into an eating joint a few months back. The county is dry. Only restaurants in city limits are able to sell and serve alcohol.

    A couple leo's were in the restaurant at the same time. I looked over 2 tables and a couple was pouring wine into a glass. It was brown bagged in. My wife pointed it out.

    I went home and re-read the restaurant law. Seems pretty clear to me. "SOLD and consumed...'
    If you get to pick one or the other instead of both, this would also make it illegal for anyone to carry in a grocery store, because alcohol is SOLD there, but not consumed.

    As with anything govt does, you know its a total disaster. If there intent was to make it so you cant carry into a bar full of drunks, they just failed with the law... because it seems quite legal to carry into a bar full of drunks, as long as the alcohol wasnt sold to them there.
    As if scribbling a few words on paper makes society function as our masters want it to anyway...
    While it may not be illegal for the OCer I have no doubt it is illegal for the restaurant and the drinkers. Brown bagging is allowed in private clubs.

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    It is totally legal to bring a bottle of wine to an establishment that does not serve alcohol with their consent. It is private property. You could go into McDonalds and do shots of tequila if they don't object.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brutus1776 View Post
    As with anything govt does, you know its a total disaster. If there intent was to make it so you cant carry into a bar full of drunks, they just failed with the law... because it seems quite legal to carry into a bar full of drunks, as long as the alcohol wasnt sold to them there.
    As if scribbling a few words on paper makes society function as our masters want it to anyway...
    The problem is without the ABC permits a business becomes private property. The state can not control how you carry on private property as long as you have consent. Once a business has the ABC permits they can not refuse LEO's entry. As a private business you can refuse an officer entry if they do not have reasonable suspicion. This has always been my gripe about movie theaters. They are private property but charge admission and every theater I have been to has gun buster signs. If a theater did not have gun buster signs and allowed concealed carry I believe a judge would rule the state does not have jurisdiction if someone was charged if they concealed carried there.

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