Richland Mall OC Incident

419OC · Jul 7, 2012

Good morning, all. I've lurked around for quite some time but a recent experience at the Richland Mall in Mansfield, OH prompted me to post to get a few opinions on how I handled the situation.

On Tuesday (July 3rd?) I entered the Mall around 5:30 pm to make a trip to GameStop to pick up a game I had called about, and I also stopped to grab some pretzels. I got my food and headed to GS, getting looks as per usual while OCing. I purchased my game and BS'ed with the employees for 10 minutes or so and decided to head home. I walked back through the mall and returned to my vehicle. As I sat down in my vehicle and unholstered my firearm, I was approached by 4 mall cops. I was about to close my door, when their "leader" called out to me from across the entire parking lot. I waited patiently while the out-of-breath gentlemen approached me. They surrounded my vehicle in an aggressive stance, two of them had their mace drawn (They don't carry guns), and one of them told me that the Mall doesn't allow OC. I informed him that there were no signs posted on the doors I entered through, or any other doors for that matter. He told me it didn't matter because signs or not "we do not allow it".

He told me that they do allow CC, but not OC, and this incident would prompt signs to be put up on all entrances. I told him I had no way of knowing that I was breaking their rule, and I wouldn't OC in the mall in the future. After the conversation I closed my door and they all stepped back and watched me leave the parking lot. On a side note: I actually work at a store in the mall, and have seen several people OC on multiple occasions. I guess it's not that big of a deal but I feel the way it all played out was kind of BS.

Thoughts? :banghead:

Deanimator · Jul 7, 2012

They can ask you to leave for pretty much any reason, not related to things like racial discrimination in a public accommodation.
You cannot be prosecuted for violating an unposted rule that you know nothing about. They can ask you to leave and if you don't, it's criminal trespass.

I suspect that there really ISN'T a rule about open carry, and the odds are even that the mall WON'T get posted.

Baked on Grease · Jul 7, 2012

Also, as a courtesy to all other gun owners.... NEVER mention signs. It only prompts them to put them up. Best to just apologize and promise you'll be sure to keep that in mind next time you go there.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

Grapeshot · Jul 7, 2012

My initial reaction is that things are not always what the seem/claim to be from first time posters with a dramatic episode i.e. vehicle surrounded by 4 security officers, some with mace in their hands.

Your being a regular mall store employee (full time employee or part-time?) makes it somewhat curious that you would not know the mall rules and not know the security personnel and they you - strange that and inconsistent too.

With the anticipated mall parking lot security cameras, it should be no problem proving that you were threatened (assaulted) by these officers............if in fact this happened. One does not deliver a message regarding rules by threatening harm. I have no problem with your being asked to not carry in a particular manner - it's their house so their rules. That does not give them the right to intimidate/threaten with physical force.

Rather than ask us what we think, why don't you go up the ladder to the top of mall security or the management agent and let them know about the supposed incident? Then let us know how that went - we'll wait.

JSlack7851 · Jul 8, 2012

Sitting in your car, the Castle Doctrine applies. You left b/4 having to defend your self, that saved a lot of paperwork. Good job. If you are annoyed by this action on the part of security, you have no choice but to contact someone and find out if these guys were making it up as they go or just what the story is.

Deanimator has some good advice too.

I also would like to find out whats going on. Most large corporations follow the letter of the law and time and time again misinformed employees make it up as they go.

If you are not comfortable with setting up a dialog, shoot me a e mail, I'll get more details and I'll look into it on your behalf. Jslack7851@yahoo.com

On a lighter/joking note, 4 menacing looking guys, 4 cans of mace, sitting in your car. I would want at least a 15 round mag....

419OC · Jul 8, 2012

Grapeshot said:
My initial reaction is that things are not always what the seem/claim to be from first time posters with a dramatic episode i.e. vehicle surrounded by 4 security officers, some with mace in their hands.

Your being a regular mall store employee (full time employee or part-time?) makes it somewhat curious that you would not know the mall rules and not know the security personnel and they you - strange that and inconsistent too.

With the anticipated mall parking lot security cameras, it should be no problem proving that you were threatened (assaulted) by these officers............

Full time. However, to address your concern about me knowing policy and being acquainted with Mall security, we are an "Anchor Store" meaning that we are attached to the mall, but do not belong to the Mall. We have our own AP team that serves as our security, therefore we never have contact with regular mallcops unless something serious is going on. (The only time they ever came into our store was to let our AP team know that there was a manhunt underway in the mall for a man that was running from the police) They don't even patrol our parking lot; and since most of the "Anchor stores" that serve as entrances to the mall don't have security cameras in their parking lots, there's probably not any footage of the incident. Even if there was, what can I say? Like a poster said earlier, their house, their rules. I don't see anything that I could have done about it.

@ The gentleman that made the comment about the 15 round mag, I could probably have taken these scrawny guys down with a Super Soaker in all honesty. I didn't really feel threatened, but it was just kinda asinine the way it all played out.

WalkingWolf · Jul 9, 2012

I avoid malls period. I notice a pattern with all most every mall I have been in. There are no gunbuster signs, except for maybe one sign with small print with mall rules located somewhere in the mall, usually the food court. While I had a permit I used to go to the mall with the wife until I took the time to read the sign. And then I noticed the same pattern with every mall I went to. It just is not worth the hassle, too bad for them.

MyWifeSaidYes · Jul 12, 2012

It sounds like you exited the mall through the store at which you work?

If so, and assuming your store has internal security cameras, ask your AP folks for a look at (or copy of) the video from the doors you left through that day.

What good will it do? It will show 4 Paul Blarts running OUT of YOUR store after a person that was, by then, not breaking any law or mall rule.

If you had been a suspected shoplifter, maybe I could see them running after you.

Get the video, if it still exists, and seriously consider making a complaint to mall management. If you want to do it anonymously, provide the video to someone else. I'd bet JSLACK would love to see that video.

419OC · Jul 16, 2012

MyWifeSaidYes said:
It sounds like you exited the mall through the store at which you work?

Get the video, if it still exists, and seriously consider making a complaint to mall management. If you want to do it anonymously, provide the video to someone else. I'd bet JSLACK would love to see that video.

I wish I did, but I exited through a regular mall entrance, not associated with any store. My store doesn't allow firearms on or off the clock. Bummer, right?

Mike · Jul 16, 2012

Baked on Grease said:
Also, as a courtesy to all other gun owners.... NEVER mention signs. It only prompts them to put them up. Best to just apologize and promise you'll be sure to keep that in mind next time you go there.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

Seiously! Please NEVER mention signs - why do gun people work to get establishments posted? If you mention signs, they will come!

MVD · Nov 5, 2012

419OC said:
Good morning, all. I've lurked around for quite some time but a recent experience at the Richland Mall in Mansfield, OH prompted me to post to get a few opinions on how I handled the situation.

On Tuesday (July 3rd?) I entered the Mall around 5:30 pm to make a trip to GameStop to pick up a game I had called about, and I also stopped to grab some pretzels. I got my food and headed to GS, getting looks as per usual while OCing. I purchased my game and BS'ed with the employees for 10 minutes or so and decided to head home. I walked back through the mall and returned to my vehicle. As I sat down in my vehicle and unholstered my firearm, I was approached by 4 mall cops. I was about to close my door, when their "leader" called out to me from across the entire parking lot. I waited patiently while the out-of-breath gentlemen approached me. They surrounded my vehicle in an aggressive stance, two of them had their mace drawn (They don't carry guns), and one of them told me that the Mall doesn't allow OC. I informed him that there were no signs posted on the doors I entered through, or any other doors for that matter. He told me it didn't matter because signs or not "we do not allow it".

He told me that they do allow CC, but not OC, and this incident would prompt signs to be put up on all entrances. I told him I had no way of knowing that I was breaking their rule, and I wouldn't OC in the mall in the future. After the conversation I closed my door and they all stepped back and watched me leave the parking lot. On a side note: I actually work at a store in the mall, and have seen several people OC on multiple occasions. I guess it's not that big of a deal but I feel the way it all played out was kind of BS.

Thoughts? :banghead:

[video=youtube;ztVMib1T4T4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4[/video]

:lol::lol::lol:

First of all. Let me apologize to the board for this being my first post on here and for bumping an old post. However, I felt it was needed to the real side of things to sort of come to light.

I have been lurking the forum for a couple years now. It is mainly reading material and also informative material for me, and I never really felt a huge urge to comment on anything so - I never bothered to make an account. Until I saw this post.

After I wiped the tears out of my eyes I made my account.

So, the lot of you are probably wondering what is going on at this point. Well, let me fill you in.

At the time I was working security for the mall and I was present during this incident. The whole thing started when we had several customers and a few employees either flag us down or call us in regards to an individual in the mall with a gun. While I admit there are no signs up - for good reason, it was an issue we had to handle as we are required to do our jobs and see to it to the mall's interests. Even if we agree or disagree with them. I took it upon myself to handle this incident since I am a big firearms individual and I am all for firearm rights. But, like I said. I have a job to do as well.

So, instead of confronting you directly in the mall, 419OC, I waited until you were heading out. I did not want people to think that Open Carry was bad by me approaching you and forcing you out right away. (Again, I had a job to do.) I did this for your courtesy (No one likes being approached and kicked out of someplace in public.) and also to benefit the sheeple. I admit, you did get a bit away before I caught up with you. Which happened to be just as you were starting to get into your car. I asked you if you had a moment to speak real quick and you stated yes. So I, by no means, forced you to stick around. You could have just drove off at any point or told me to toss rocks.

Then we had our discussion, as you mentioned, about CC and OC and the rules on the property involving it. I told you very specifically that this was for future reference and that I did not want to cause a scene inside over this issue.

I had one other security officer with me.

That's all that happened.

No one pointed OC at you. Because we do not carry OC.
There was most certainly not four people chasing you out into the parking lot and surrounding your car because there were NOT four individuals even on shift at that time of day, and, of course, it was only me and another employee who approached you.
Out of breath? :lol:
Aggressive stance? :banghead: :lol: We had a pretty casual conversation. If me standing talking to you like a normal person is aggressive, then so be it.
As for the whole sign conversation, yes, I did mention that. But no, I did not say that signs would be put up because of our little get together alone. I simply stated that all it takes is people to panic, not know it is legal, and then run to management to have signs put up which would bar not just OC, but CC as well. I prefer to allow CC people as much as possible, and I, personally, have fought to keep CC allowed on property. I am sorry you did not understand my very simple explanation.

Your post alone goes to show why everyone should be especially careful of stories we hear. I find it interesting you also say you are an employee of the mall. Hmmm! :lol:

On how you handled the situation. I thought you handled it very well. You were polite and interested in our conversation we had together. You even thanked me for informing you so that you would not have had a future incident (Trust me, I am probably the one you wanted there to handle the thing. I know several others who would have just called the police and had tangled you up in even worse of a bind.) and I thanked you for understanding that I simply was just doing what my job told me to do at the time.

But this after action report, and it's fabrications.

You get a big fat F.

With that. I go back to my lurking ways. Thanks for the laughs, though. Thanks for the laughs.

WalkingWolf · Nov 5, 2012

MVD said:
[video=youtube;ztVMib1T4T4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4[/video]

:lol::lol::lol:

First of all. Let me apologize to the board for this being my first post on here and for bumping an old post. However, I felt it was needed to the real side of things to sort of come to light.

I have been lurking the forum for a couple years now. It is mainly reading material and also informative material for me, and I never really felt a huge urge to comment on anything so - I never bothered to make an account. Until I saw this post.

After I wiped the tears out of my eyes I made my account.

So, the lot of you are probably wondering what is going on at this point. Well, let me fill you in.

At the time I was working security for the mall and I was present during this incident. The whole thing started when we had several customers and a few employees either flag us down or call us in regards to an individual in the mall with a gun. While I admit there are no signs up - for good reason, it was an issue we had to handle as we are required to do our jobs and see to it to the mall's interests. Even if we agree or disagree with them. I took it upon myself to handle this incident since I am a big firearms individual and I am all for firearm rights. But, like I said. I have a job to do as well.

So, instead of confronting you directly in the mall, 419OC, I waited until you were heading out. I did not want people to think that Open Carry was bad by me approaching you and forcing you out right away. (Again, I had a job to do.) I did this for your courtesy (No one likes being approached and kicked out of someplace in public.) and also to benefit the sheeple. I admit, you did get a bit away before I caught up with you. Which happened to be just as you were starting to get into your car. I asked you if you had a moment to speak real quick and you stated yes. So I, by no means, forced you to stick around. You could have just drove off at any point or told me to toss rocks. Then we had our discussion, as you mentioned, about CC and OC and the rules on the property involving it. I told you very specifically that this was for future reference and that I did not want to cause a scene inside over this issue.

I had one other security officer with me.

That's all that happened.

No one pointed OC at you. Because we do not carry OC.
There was most certainly not four people chasing you out into the parking lot and surrounding your car because there were NOT four individuals even on shift at that time of day, and, of course, it was only me and another employee who approached you.
Out of breath? :lol:
Aggressive stance? :banghead: :lol: We had a pretty casual conversation. If me standing talking to you like a normal person is aggressive, then so be it.
As for the whole sign conversation, yes, I did mention that. But no, I did not say that signs would be put up because of our little get together alone. I simply stated that all it takes is people to panic, not know it is legal, and then run to management to have signs put up which would bar not just OC, but CC as well. I prefer to allow CC people as much as possible, and I, personally, have fought to keep CC allowed on property. I am sorry you did not understand my very simple explanation.

Your post alone goes to show why everyone should be especially careful of stories we hear. I find it interesting you also say you are an employee of the mall. Hmmm! :lol:

On how you handled the situation. I thought you handled it very well. You were polite and interested in our conversation we had together. You even thanked me for informing you so that you would not have had a future incident (Trust me, I am probably the one you wanted there to handle the thing. I know several others who would have just called the police and had tangled you up in even worse of a bind.) and I thanked you for understanding that I simply was just doing what my job told me to do at the time.

But this after action report, and it's fabrications.

You get a big fat F.

With that. I go back to my lurking ways. Thanks for the laughs, though. Thanks for the laughs.

Do you have a incident report that you can post?

If you are in fact the person in this incident why in the Helll did you wait until he was in his vehicle and about to leave? And even if it was two, since you admit there was no signs YOU approached him to lecture him? I would have told you to bugger off, and the fact that you CHASED was aggressive. Considering you are not a police officer you are very lucky he was not a bad guy.

How incredibly stupid to chase a man with a gun! Just why should we believe your word over his? I will wait on that incident report...

MVD · Nov 5, 2012

Sigh, Did I say I chased him? No. I approached casually.

If he was a bad guy? I observed him for quite a while. I could tell this was simply a law abiding individual.

We're grasping at straws now to defend our OP, now, aren't we?

You're not getting an incident report because I no longer work there. Besides that, incident reports are not given out unless it is a court order. As you said. Security are not police officers, there for their records are not public information.

Told me to bugger off. Right. Like I said in my post, if you cared to look through, I would have had no problem with that. Who's feelings do you think you would hurt?

WalkingWolf · Nov 5, 2012

[video=youtube;yybqMNbxhc4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yybqMNbxhc4[/video]

MVD · Nov 5, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
[video=youtube;yybqMNbxhc4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yybqMNbxhc4[/video]

Mature, but that was a funny movie. :lol:

WalkingWolf · Nov 5, 2012

MVD said:
Mature, but that was a funny movie. :lol:

Every bit as mature as the video you posted~so far you are not doing yourself any favors here. So tell how intelligent was it to go chasing a man with a gun, while unarmed. To tell him that he is not welcome at the time he is leaving? Oh and you are unarmed?

MVD · Nov 5, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
Every bit as mature as the video you posted~so far you are not doing yourself any favors here. So tell how intelligent was it to go chasing a man with a gun, while unarmed. To tell him that he is not welcome at the time he is leaving? Oh and you are unarmed?

I think you, like the OP, are making it out to be something more than what it was.

Also, where do we keep getting chased? No one was chased. It was a simple approach and casual conversation about firearms, OC, and CC. Just like you would with any OC meet and greet, or perhaps information and awareness walk.

I felt pretty intelligent. All I had to do was turn my hip to the side and get into a command stance with a firm command voice. :banana: :lol:

WalkingWolf · Nov 5, 2012

MVD said:
I think you, like the OP, are making it out to be something more than what it was.

Also, where do we keep getting chased? No one was chased. It was a simple approach and casual conversation about firearms, OC, and CC. Just like you would with any OC meet and greet, or perhaps information and awareness walk.

Hey you admitted you chased an armed man to the parking lot, while unarmed, to tell him he was not welcome as he was leaving. No one twisted your arm to come here to try to make fun of the other guy, and expose yourself. The man broke no laws and you had no right to chase him, that was aggressive no matter how you dice it. YOU had two choices, trespass him in the mall, and hope he did not sue the mall for not posting signs, and then embarrassing him, or let him go.

It seems you are as irresponsible as the mall. You for chasing a armed man into the parking lot. You are very lucky he was not a bad guy and a decent person. I see why you are a mall cop, instead of a real cop.

If the mall expects to enforce such a policy it would behoove them to do it properly.

BTW I would still like to see that mall incident report. You should have no problem getting one unless you left on bad terms?

Grapeshot · Nov 5, 2012

For what it is worth, I don't buy into "it happened to me" stories but so much. Too much opportunity for artistic license and too little confirmation available. We've see more than our fair share of such stories go unsubstantiated.

This being a prime example of there being a different rendition from another perspective with a decided different take on things.

Now I'm not passing judgement on either poster. Just observing that there are telling differences.

I see no reason to put either party to this on the hot seat. Lessons to be learned? Perhaps, but nothing that most of us have not thought of before.

Go in peace.

Richland Mall OC Incident

419OC

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Deanimator

Regular Member

Baked on Grease

Regular Member

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior

JSlack7851

Regular Member

419OC

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WalkingWolf

Regular Member

MyWifeSaidYes

Regular Member

419OC

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Mike

Site Co-Founder

MVD

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WalkingWolf

Regular Member

MVD

New member

WalkingWolf

Regular Member

MVD

New member

WalkingWolf

Regular Member

MVD

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WalkingWolf

Regular Member

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior