Army leaks plans - shoot civilians in civil unrest

OC for ME · Jul 9, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
The point I am trying to get through is that using make believe to back up your position, destroys any credibility. All you had to do was leave the movie trailer out of it. You could have showed the clip of the police abusing the elderly woman post Katrina and made your point much more effectively. Don't take offense but the antis that see such stuff would have a field day with it.

It is not the cops we are talking about here, nor is it the premise of the OP.....nor the inference in the movie clip. The 'problems' created after Katrina were entirely man made by a city administration that permitted rampant cop thuggery and lawlessness. Katrina was not a aftermath story it was a story in the making from years of democrat rule.

While the movie clip showed a 'cop' lighting the fuse of the backlash, the majority of the clip insinuates that the army is defending a tyrannical government. As I have stated above, do not count on a army to follow any ROE if a enraged citizenry objects to their army preventing them from exercising their 1A right let alone their 2A right. Do not count on any soldier to not assist cops when the cops choose to deprive the citizenry of their 4A right.

If it is the soldier or the citizen the soldier will choose himself over a citizen every time, unfortunately it is the government that places the soldier in that position to begin with. It would be nice if the soldier would simply refuse to be placed in that position to begin with.

davidmcbeth · Jul 9, 2012

Ca Patriot said:
Kent State never happened.

Waco never happened.

Ruby Ridge never happened.

Katrina never happened.

There is nothing to see here folks.

Go home, the government will protect you.

After 9-11 I noted airmen at our airports ... I chewed one out for being there ... why a US airman is pointing his gun on US citizens really got me riled. I don't like seeing servicemen walking around in their fatigues ... want to be out in public in uniform? Wear your dress uniform.

WalkingWolf · Jul 9, 2012

OC for ME said:
It is not the cops we are talking about here, nor is it the premise of the OP.....nor the inference in the movie clip. The 'problems' created after Katrina were entirely man made by a city administration that permitted rampant cop thuggery and lawlessness. Katrina was not a aftermath story it was a story in the making from years of democrat rule.

While the movie clip showed a 'cop' lighting the fuse of the backlash, the majority of the clip insinuates that the army is defending a tyrannical government. As I have stated above, do not count on a army to follow any ROE if a enraged citizenry objects to their army preventing them from exercising their 1A right let alone their 2A right. Do not count on any soldier to not assist cops when the cops choose to deprive the citizenry of their 4A right.

If it is the soldier or the citizen the soldier will choose himself over a citizen every time, unfortunately it is the government that places the soldier in that position to begin with. It would be nice if the soldier would simply refuse to be placed in that position to begin with.

**Sigh** Next we will be discussing government vampires~~Where is Abe Lincoln vampire hunter when you need him...:banghead:

Ca Patriot · Jul 9, 2012

The 82nd Airborne was in New Orleans after Katrina. They were going house to house and assisting in seizing guns. But dont worry, that never happened.

WalkingWolf · Jul 9, 2012

Ca Patriot said:
The 82nd Airborne was in New Orleans after Katrina. They were going house to house and assisting in seizing guns. But dont worry, that never happened.

Do you have a legit citation that the 82nd Airborne participated in weapons seizures?

Please no more movie trailers? It gives me a headache and I never liked tin foil hats.

MrOverlay · Jul 9, 2012

I was at a USPSA shooting match a couple of years ago and struck up a conversation with a Deta soldier. During the conversaton he made a comment that if the POTUS ordered my head on a pike, he would put it there. I told him that was an interesting statement and it appeared that he considered the murder of an American citizen, because the POTUS wanted it, to be a lawful order and within the Constitution he swore to defend.

He started to quallify his comment and I asked him what he thought about the army tanks at Waco. He said there were no army personell involved in that. I asked him if he thought that the citizens inside the house made that distinction as the tanks were crashing through the walls. He didn't answer and I walked away.

I hope I am wrong, but I believe that a good many troops will fire on Americans for no other reason that they are told to.

WalkingWolf · Jul 9, 2012

MrOverlay said:
I was at a USPSA shooting match a couple of years ago and struck up a conversation with a Deta soldier. During the conversaton he made a comment that if the POTUS ordered my head on a pike, he would put it there. I told him that was an interesting statement and it appeared that he considered the murder of an American citizen, because the POTUS wanted it, to be a lawful order and within the Constitution he swore to defend.

He started to quallify his comment and I asked him what he thought about the army tanks at Waco. He said there were no army personell involved in that. I asked him if he thought that the citizens inside the house made that distinction as the tanks were crashing through the walls. He didn't answer and I walked away.

I hope I am wrong, but I believe that a good many troops will fire on Americans for no other reason that they are told to.

I agree that some will, and believe that some will not. What I think I would have asked him if he would carry out a hit on his mother if Obama ordered it. We have enough real instances of abuses of the constitution without putting on tin foil hats and looking like loonies pointing to movie trailers, that was my initial point. Not whether there has been abuses or will be, we already know that. We already know that Obama ordered two US citizens executed without due process. Now a good many citizens are OK with this because he was a bad man, but the problem is some of Obama's staff has said we all are bad people. Unless we are willing to call foul even if it is a bad person, we may be the next person in those rifle sights.

F350 · Jul 9, 2012

SovereignAxe said:
I say good luck to them getting anyone to pull the trigger.

You livin' in the land of sugar plums, unicorns and flavored rainbows????

When I was working at a gun shop/indoor range I had a couple National Guardsmen say "I wouldn't like it but I would do my duty".

You are probably over age 40. this ain't our generation in the military now!

Everything else, contingency plans, posse comitatus etc aside; here is what chaps my @...

(4) While serving with a multinational operation under the preview of the United Nations (UN) charter or customary international law the UN will may mandate certain restrictions on the use of force. By the use of overwhelming force during a civil disturbance under the UN may compromise diplomatic efforts to reach a peaceful solution. Commanders must beware that any confrontation of the ROE made by soldiers can have strategic political implications on current and future operations.

Ca Patriot · Jul 9, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
Do you have a legit citation that the 82nd Airborne participated in weapons seizures?

Do you acknowledge that the 82nd Airborne was in NO post Katrina ?

WalkingWolf · Jul 9, 2012

Ca Patriot said:
Do you acknowledge that the 82nd Airborne was in NO post Katrina ?

My son in the 82nd was not there, he was in Iraq, my other son was there as part of power and light company restoring power. Neither son made any mention of the 82nd being in LA post Katrina. I do not need to acknowledge because I did not make the claim, YOU DID! Even if they were or were not there that still does not prove they confiscated any weapons, or even took part.

Do you have a citation to back up the claim or not?

KBCraig · Jul 9, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
My son in the 82nd was not there, he was in Iraq, my other son was there as part of power and light company restoring power. Neither son made any mention of the 82nd being in LA post Katrina. I do not need to acknowledge because I did not make the claim, YOU DID! Even if they were or were not there that still does not prove they confiscated any weapons, or even took part.

Do you have a citation to back up the claim or not?

While this .mil source probably doesn't discuss weapon confiscation (I haven't read the whole thing), the 82nd was most definitely there.

http://www.army.mil/article/45029/The_Army_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina/

Units from the 82nd Airborne Division began arriving at the New Orleans Airport seven hours after getting deployment orders. MG William Caldwell of the 82nd Airborne received succinct orders from LTG Honore: "Your job is to fix the airport and fix New Orleans." The 319th Airborne Field Artillery was assigned to fix the airport. Working with airport staff, the 319th augmented the existing departure process and brought order and direction by taking responsibility for passenger manifests and security screening. Within 12 hours, 9,000 people had been evacuated through the airport. The 3rd Brigade of the 82nd Airborne worked with FEMA in search and rescue operations, providing needed manpower, equipment and standardized maps.

WalkingWolf · Jul 9, 2012

KBCraig said:
While this .mil source probably doesn't discuss weapon confiscation (I haven't read the whole thing), the 82nd was most definitely there.

http://www.army.mil/article/45029/The_Army_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina/

Units from the 82nd Airborne Division began arriving at the New Orleans Airport seven hours after getting deployment orders. MG William Caldwell of the 82nd Airborne received succinct orders from LTG Honore: "Your job is to fix the airport and fix New Orleans." The 319th Airborne Field Artillery was assigned to fix the airport. Working with airport staff, the 319th augmented the existing departure process and brought order and direction by taking responsibility for passenger manifests and security screening. Within 12 hours, 9,000 people had been evacuated through the airport. The 3rd Brigade of the 82nd Airborne worked with FEMA in search and rescue operations, providing needed manpower, equipment and standardized maps.

As you have shown nothing implies they took part in any weapons confiscation. In fact it did not even list policing as part of their duty. Like I stated neither son mentioned it, but then there was no reason to. My son fixing lines was armed while there, and around police and NG. Nobody bothered him, but then it would be stupid to hassle the lineman restoring power.

But I could find some Steven Seagal movie clips if that would help any...:banana:

Judging by this article it appears it was the local authorities who were the culprits. http://www.theshootist.net/2008/12/court-decision-on-new-orleans-gun.html

SovereignAxe · Jul 9, 2012

F350 said:
You livin' in the land of sugar plums, unicorns and flavored rainbows????

When I was working at a gun shop/indoor range I had a couple National Guardsmen say "I wouldn't like it but I would do my duty".

You are probably over age 40. this ain't our generation in the military now!

Everything else, contingency plans, posse comitatus etc aside; here is what chaps my @...

heh. 27 actually.

My best friend in in the Air Force and I've known a few other people in the other branches and none of them seem like the type that would turn their weapons on civilians. Maybe I'm naive.

WalkingWolf · Jul 9, 2012

SovereignAxe said:
heh. 27 actually.

My best friend in in the Air Force and I've known a few other people in the other branches and none of them seem like the type that would turn their weapons on civilians. Maybe I'm naive.

I would tend to agree with you... We know a lot of military between family and friends and I highly doubt they would fire on us. BUT taken from our community moved to another and fed a lot of bad intel, or propaganda that might be another story. Look at the OBL killing, we are all happy he is dead, he was a bad man, a despicable man, he deserved to die a brutal death. BUT our military was ordered to kill him at any cost, including taking the lives of thousands of innocent Pakistani citizens. Thank God that did not happen, but remind me again why OBL was such a bad man, didn't it have to do with thousands of innocent US citizens? Obama is only testing the waters IMO of what he can get away with, and this does give me the heebeejeebees.

cloudcroft · Jul 9, 2012

@MrOverlay: OF COURSE the military would (fire on Americans) -- they've done it before in our history.

Consequently, you might want to give some thought to (plan) your reaction...

PrayingForWar · Jul 10, 2012

MrOverlay said:
I was at a USPSA shooting match a couple of years ago and struck up a conversation with a Deta soldier. During the conversaton he made a comment that if the POTUS ordered my head on a pike, he would put it there. I told him that was an interesting statement and it appeared that he considered the murder of an American citizen, because the POTUS wanted it, to be a lawful order and within the Constitution he swore to defend.

He started to quallify his comment and I asked him what he thought about the army tanks at Waco. He said there were no army personell involved in that. I asked him if he thought that the citizens inside the house made that distinction as the tanks were crashing through the walls. He didn't answer and I walked away.

I hope I am wrong, but I believe that a good many troops will fire on Americans for no other reason that they are told to.

Real Delta soldiers rarely tell people outside that community without good cause. Anyone bragging that they're Delta, or any Tier 1 operator to a stranger at a gun range is more than likely full of $#!t.

I have never met the sort of idiot in the military in the last 10 years of my career that would arbitrarily shoot his own countrymen merely because he's been ordered to. Plenty of us even hold fire while being shot at in war zones due to concerns that innocent people could be hit in the cross fire.

The military is not your enemy, stupidity is.

DangerClose · Jul 10, 2012

MrOverlay said:
I hope I am wrong, but I believe that a good many troops will fire on Americans for no other reason that they are told to.

Just following orders!

[video=youtube;ONK3kLT0258]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONK3kLT0258[/video]

MAC702 · Jul 10, 2012

MrOverlay said:
...I hope I am wrong, but I believe that a good many troops will fire on Americans for no other reason that they are told to.

I was an officer in the US Navy. I wanted to be a lifer. The politics was un-FUCKIN-believeable. The guys I served with were A-holes, bigots, jocks, and/or legacies (sons of officers). Most of them had no real clue what it was truly like to lead men that were serving their country.

There are only a few ranks, mostly senior NCO's (thank God), that we will be relying on to protect us from the government's illegal requests of the military.

Sig229 · Jul 10, 2012

How many millions of Chinese thought Mao and their army wouldn't have then killed?
How many Russians thought Stalin and their military wouldn't have them killed?

Some for the people putting bullets in the back of their heads, were fellow neighbors, schoolmates and even family members.

Yes our government is vastly different than communist Russian and China.
However, we share the same human nature.

When a person is told by a higher authority that the people they are ordered to kill in an "enemy of the state" and they see their comrades swallowing this lie, unfortunately human nature has proved to us that all to often its probable a person is going to follow and carry out these orders.

We may be the most sophisticated living organisms on earth, but we do still have a pack mentality.

There is no doubt in my mind if "assault weapon" owners or people of a certain faith or even certain political view were deemed "homegrown terrorists", the majority of US Military personal, would without question fire on these wrongly labeled individuals.

The real question is, how would you respond?

sharkey · Jul 10, 2012

Under to ROE examples I saw I wouldn't have a problem putting a bullet in you if I was in the service.

A mob coalescing on a nuke plant. Trying to break into an armory or steal military weapons. Shooting at me from a disclosed location. Sorry. Bang!

Don't worry though ... I'd only shoot one bullet per trigger pull since auto is against the ROE.

In the below example I would have no problem with the military shooting an anti-tank missile at you.

[video=youtube;pzi2hR0Kt1U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzi2hR0Kt1U[/video]

Army leaks plans - shoot civilians in civil unrest

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