brief exposure / producing CWL

notalawyer said:

I keep pointing this out to you and you fail to grasp it. One District Court of Appeals in Florida has ruled that it is. Another ruled that it is not, thus we have a certified conflict. Until the Supreme Court of Florida decides, we take our chances. There are scores, perhaps hundreds, of other court cases regarding this topic, some of the stops have been ruled to be valid, many have not. Again, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES AT THE TIME OF THE STOP!

The totality of the circumstance is what is going to matter in court.
Time and place of the contact. Late at night in a high crime area, middle of the day at the mall. Traffic stop - Driver? Passenger?, 911 complaint, etc.
Then you'll need to define 'see a gun'. A bulge, part of the grip, part of the muzzle, an outline, a magazine or speed loader, etc.
Then you have to take into consideration the LEO's training and experience, whether you like it or not this will be a significant factor in court.
And on and on....

It is no where as simple as you or I would like it to be.

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i don't understand what "district court of appeals in florida" you are talking about... the FLORIDA v. J. L. is a supreme court case

ADulay said:

How can they ask for a CWL? Uh, they just got a call from a concerned citizen about a man with a gun who just walked into the local burger joint. As openly carried weapons are not the norm for Florida, I can see where some people might be overly concerned. Not everyone is as enlightened as us!!

Anyway, the person has been identified as the "person with the gun" and they would now like to confirm that you are legally carrying that weapon.

Even though they can't SEE the weapon, they now have a REASONABLE expectation that the person is carrying a weapon and they might want to just confirm that it's all legal.

Produce the CWL, shake hands, say "Thanks for checking" and move along with the rest of your day.

When that original "man with a gun" call came into the dispatcher, who's to say what the "concerned citizen" really said? They may have made it sound like Rambo was about to order a double cheeseburger with an M-60 over his shoulder and Uzi's in every pocket. Citizens have been known to exaggerate the facts for sure. Under these circumstances, I would think the officers would want to at least confirm that all was right with the world at this time.

AD

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that's a violation of the 4th amendment though....

carrying a concealed weapon in florida is NOT a crime if the person has a CWL. an anonymous tip saying someone is carrying a concealed weapon isn't grounds for RAS or a terry stop because the cop has not seen it.... someone calls 911 and says that i (me) am carrying a gun, and a cop comes out, and they come up to me and ask if i'm carrying a gun, i don't have to answer... i haven't committed a crime..

notalawyer said:

I keep pointing this out to you and you fail to grasp it. One District Court of Appeals in Florida has ruled that it is. Another ruled that it is not, thus we have a certified conflict. Until the Supreme Court of Florida decides, we take our chances. There are scores, perhaps hundreds, of other court cases regarding this topic, some of the stops have been ruled to be valid, many have not. Again, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES AT THE TIME OF THE STOP!

The totality of the circumstance is what is going to matter in court.
Time and place of the contact. Late at night in a high crime area, middle of the day at the mall. Traffic stop - Driver? Passenger?, 911 complaint, etc.
Then you'll need to define 'see a gun'. A bulge, part of the grip, part of the muzzle, an outline, a magazine or speed loader, etc.
Then you have to take into consideration the LEO's training and experience, whether you like it or not this will be a significant factor in court.
And on and on....

It is no where as simple as you or I would like it to be.

Click to expand...

so a cop stops me for walking down the street and asks for my CWL? what's his RAS that i'm committing the crime of carrying a concealed weapon without a CWL? he doesn't have any. not until he sees a gun...

notalawyer said:

I keep pointing this out to you and you fail to grasp it. One District Court of Appeals in Florida has ruled that it is. Another ruled that it is not, thus we have a certified conflict. Until the Supreme Court of Florida decides, we take our chances. There are scores, perhaps hundreds, of other court cases regarding this topic, some of the stops have been ruled to be valid, many have not. Again, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES AT THE TIME OF THE STOP!

The totality of the circumstance is what is going to matter in court.
Time and place of the contact. Late at night in a high crime area, middle of the day at the mall. Traffic stop - Driver? Passenger?, 911 complaint, etc.
Then you'll need to define 'see a gun'. A bulge, part of the grip, part of the muzzle, an outline, a magazine or speed loader, etc.
Then you have to take into consideration the LEO's training and experience, whether you like it or not this will be a significant factor in court.
And on and on....

It is no where as simple as you or I would like it to be.

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and a "bulge" doesn't mean it's a gun...i don't have to answer...because a "bulge" or even "printing" isn't illegal in florida... so again, i ask you, how can he ask me for my CWL?

ADulay said:

How can they ask for a CWL? Uh, they just got a call from a concerned citizen about a man with a gun who just walked into the local burger joint. As openly carried weapons are not the norm for Florida, I can see where some people might be overly concerned. Not everyone is as enlightened as us!!

Anyway, the person has been identified as the "person with the gun" and they would now like to confirm that you are legally carrying that weapon.

Even though they can't SEE the weapon, they now have a REASONABLE expectation that the person is carrying a weapon and they might want to just confirm that it's all legal.

Produce the CWL, shake hands, say "Thanks for checking" and move along with the rest of your day.

When that original "man with a gun" call came into the dispatcher, who's to say what the "concerned citizen" really said? They may have made it sound like Rambo was about to order a double cheeseburger with an M-60 over his shoulder and Uzi's in every pocket. Citizens have been known to exaggerate the facts for sure. Under these circumstances, I would think the officers would want to at least confirm that all was right with the world at this time.

AD

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if someone calls 911 to say someone was openly carrying a weapon, and the cops show up, and said person is not openly carrying, then the cop has RAS that he HAS committed a crime, since OC is a crime in florida. THEREFORE, he is able to stop and question him. BUT, i'm not talking about openly carrying in FLORIDA. i'm talking about a state where it's legal. but that's not even my point. my question is about the CWL. i was just pointing out that openly carrying a weapon in, say, pennsylvania is not RAS for a stop to check and ID. since open carry is LEGAL.

hammer6 said:

if someone calls 911 to say someone was openly carrying a weapon, and the cops show up, and said person is not openly carrying, then the cop has RAS that he HAS committed a crime, since OC is a crime in florida. THEREFORE, he is able to stop and question him. BUT, i'm not talking about openly carrying in FLORIDA. i'm talking about a state where it's legal. but that's not even my point. my question is about the CWL. i was just pointing out that openly carrying a weapon in, say, pennsylvania is not RAS for a stop to check and ID. since open carry is LEGAL.

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OK, but this is the Florida sub-forum.

As has been explained numerous times, in FLORIDA a LEO can ask to see your CWFL anytime he wants to, just like any other person on the street. Now whether you must comply with that request will depend on the nature of the contact.

notalawyer said:

OK, but this is the Florida sub-forum.

As has been explained numerous times, in FLORIDA a LEO can ask to see your CWFL anytime he wants to, just like any other person on the street. Now whether you must comply with that request will depend on the nature of the contact.

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the point is, i never SAID anything about open carrying in FLORIDA. adulay did. i was just clarifying that i did NOT use that example.

and bud, are you for real? did you read what you wrote? a cop can absolutely NOT walk up to me and ask for my CWL... how could that LEGALLY be possible? he may do it, but it's certainly not legal...


IF IT IS, THAT'S WHAT THIS WHOLE POST IS ABOUT- SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT SAYS IT IS LEGAL, AS WAS MY ORIGINAL QUESTION IN MY ORIGINAL POST.


thanks.

hammer6 said:

the point is, i never SAID anything about open carrying in FLORIDA. adulay did. i was just clarifying that i did NOT use that example.

and bud, are you for real? did you read what you wrote? a cop can absolutely NOT walk up to me and ask for my CWL... how could that LEGALLY be possible? he may do it, but it's certainly not legal...


IF IT IS, THAT'S WHAT THIS WHOLE POST IS ABOUT- SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT SAYS IT IS LEGAL, AS WAS MY ORIGINAL QUESTION IN MY ORIGINAL POST.


thanks.

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:banghead:

I think you fail to understand basic legal principles.

a cop can absolutely NOT walk up to me and ask for my CWL

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He certainly can.

As I stated several times, depending on the circumstances he may have RAS to perform a Terry stop and is not required to tell you what the RAS is and if he chooses to, may lie about the reason. All perfectly legal. Plus he may not have any RAS at all; Google "Consensual Encounter".

SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT SAYS IT IS LEGAL

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That's not generally how laws work, they tell us what is unlawful. There is no law in Florida that prohibits it. In fact there is one that specifically permits it - 790.06(1)

. . .
The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.
. . .

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You will notice, in this statute, there are no restrictions on the circumstances where he may ask.

hammer6 said:

the point is, i never SAID anything about open carrying in FLORIDA. adulay did. i was just clarifying that i did NOT use that example.

and bud, are you for real? did you read what you wrote? a cop can absolutely NOT walk up to me and ask for my CWL... how could that LEGALLY be possible? he may do it, but it's certainly not legal...


IF IT IS, THAT'S WHAT THIS WHOLE POST IS ABOUT- SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT SAYS IT IS LEGAL, AS WAS MY ORIGINAL QUESTION IN MY ORIGINAL POST.


thanks.

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As notalawyer said, statutes generally say what is illegal, not what is legal. If there's no law against it, it's generally legal.

Show the statute that says it's legal to wear blue jeans on Tuesdays. An officer can walk up to you and ask you anything he/she likes. Whether or not you are obligated to answer depends on the circumstances.

forget it.

hammer6 said:

forget it.

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What will be interesting is if we can just slash "briefly" out of 790.053. Then we still only have to produce a CWFL upon demand of a LEO if we're carrying a concealed weapon. Fl may as well be a gold star state if cops obeyed the law.

hammer6 said:

forget it.

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So is this to say you finally understand or are just giving up?

notalawyer said:

So is this to say you finally understand or are just giving up?

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throwing in the towel until someone can provide a legitimate answer... other than "it's not restricted by law, so whenever they want"

hammer6 said:

throwing in the towel until someone can provide an answer I agree with... other than "it's not restricted by law, so whenever they want"

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Fixed it for you.

notalawyer said:

Fixed it for you.

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i'm sorry...i'm glad you used one of your 24 posts to read my mind..

you repeatedly say "anytime they want" which is against the 4th amendment. i'm waiting for a legitimate answer... k thx

hammer6 said:

i'm sorry...i'm glad you used one of your 24 posts to read my mind..

you repeatedly say "anytime they want" which is against the 4th amendment. i'm waiting for a legitimate answer... k thx

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Mind reading not required.

Any reasonable person would tend to accept reality when one has been provided citations to Florida statutes and case law on the subject.

You've received the correct legal answer several times. You are just waiting for someone to agree with your notion of the way it "should be".

Your statement "against the 4th amendment" among others, highlights your inability/unwillingness to grasp even basic legal principles.

:banghead:

notalawyer said:

Mind reading not required.

Any reasonable person would tend to accept reality when one has been provided citations to Florida statutes and case law on the subject.

You've received the correct legal answer several times. You are just waiting for someone to agree with your notion of the way it "should be".

Your statement "against the 4th amendment" among others, highlights your inability/unwillingness to grasp even basic legal principles.

:banghead:

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oh i'm sorry, i missed the post where you cited florida statutes and case law. did you delete it? i see the case law i have posted, did you?

hammer6 said:

oh i'm sorry, i missed the post where you cited florida statutes and case law. did you delete it? i see the case law i have posted, did you?

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I guess we can add reading comprehension issues to the list.

hammer6 said:

that's a violation of the 4th amendment though....

carrying a concealed weapon in florida is NOT a crime if the person has a CWL. an anonymous tip saying someone is carrying a concealed weapon isn't grounds for RAS or a terry stop because the cop has not seen it.... someone calls 911 and says that i (me) am carrying a gun, and a cop comes out, and they come up to me and ask if i'm carrying a gun, i don't have to answer... i haven't committed a crime..

Click to expand...

Well, let's see how this plays out.

I regularly (as in DAILY) do this open carry thing here in Florida and I do "push the envelope", so to speak as in riding the motorcycle from shooting/fishing to various other places, other than my home. I do use the "brief" display statute to allow me to get off the bike and put on a cover garment.

If somebody calls in a MWAG call and the LEO's show up, I pretty sure I know why they are looking at my bike and then walking in.

The have a REASONABLE suspicion that a person fitting MY description riding MY motorcycle just came in with a gun, now properly concealed, but "briefly" openly displayed in the parking lot.

Florida Statute 790.06(1) expressly states that if you're carrying a concealed weapon you MUST produce valid identification UPON DEMAND by a law enforcement officer. It doesn't say they need to actually have a reason.

I've been through this. Just show the guy your license and move on.

Once they identify ME as the owner of the motorcycle AND my description fits the one given by the concerned citizen, the would be almost in dereliction of duty NOT to at least ask me if I'm carrying a weapon, at which time Florida law REQUIRES me to answer them AND produce identification, IF I'M CARRYING!

This isn't rocket science, it's basic police work and civil interaction.

I've been through this. Just show the guy your license and move on.

AD