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Thread: Encounter with Louisville LEO's, negative, then positive

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    Regular Member WhistlingJack's Avatar
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    Encounter with Louisville LEO's, negative, then positive

    Been lurking on these forums for awhile, decided I would join. After reading some other stories from users here, I figured I would share the story of an encounter I had with the Louisville LEO's.

    Preface: I open carry regularly, and while officers have seen me armed multiple times, the following incident is the only time an officer has said anything to me, let alone created a negative encounter.

    There is a particular Thorton's I visit literally every workweek, on my way in I stop there to pick up an energy drink (I hate coffee), and some water. I don't know what free stuff LEO's get there, but there is always 2-6 LEO's in this Thorton's during the day (less so at night). It is generally the same officers, I see them enough to know their faces. Well on this particular day a few weeks ago there were some new faces.

    As I enter the door I notice this one officer watching me, now this officer couldn't have been on the force for a year, looked like he was 12-years old. He continues to glare at me as I get my drinks, then go to wait in line. After I pay I go to leave, and this young officer proceeds to step in front of me so that I nearly collided with him. (Not too smart as I had to have at least a hundred pounds on him.)

    He then says "Sir, show me your concealed carry permit."
    I answered "I do not have a CCW officer."
    Him: "Well you can't have a gun without one."
    Me: "With respect you are mistaken, I do not require any sort of permit to own a weapon in this state, and as I am open carrying I do not require a permit."

    At this point the other three officers in that day are largely ignoring us.

    Him: "Well you're brandishing a weapon."
    Me: "No, Officer, its in its holster on my belt, I am not brandishing anything."
    Him: "Why are you carrying it?"
    Me: "Personal defense."
    Him: "Why, is someone after you?"
    Me: "No Officer, I appreciate your concern but no one is after me that I know of, and I do not require assistance obtaining an EPO."
    Him: "So, you're just looking for trouble?"

    This was the point where I really started to get annoyed.

    Me: "No Officer, I'm not looking for trouble, but trouble has been known to go looking for people who are minding their own business."
    Him: "Show me your ID."
    Me: "No, Officer, normally I would to be cooperative, but with your garrish behavior, I'm not inclined to do so."

    By this point everyone but the other three cops is watching us.

    He then proceeds to take a step toward me while reaching for my gun saying "I'm going to take this off of you."
    I took a step back (and I assume it was our movement that finally caught the attention of the other cops.)

    Me: "No Officer, I don't think so."
    Him: "Excuse me?" (He puts his hand on his gun.)
    Me: "Unless I am under arrest, I have no intention of letting you seize my property.
    Him: "Well Sir, since you won't show me your ID I have to take it from you, for all I know you're a felon walking around here with a gun and I have to make sure."
    Me: "Officer, with respect, people with ill-intent don't walk around with their weapon out for people to see. Now unless I am under arrest, I need to get to work."

    As I try to step to the side he steps in my way and gets in my face. (I guess he thought someone 5 inches shorter and a hundred pounds lighter could be intimidating.)

    Him: "Would you like me to arrest you?"
    Me: "Somehow I don't think your service jacket is thick enough to eat the complaint I'll be filing against you."

    At this point his face is blood-red, and anyone watching can clearly tell which of the two of us is the hostile party.

    Him: "You won't surrender your weapon, and you won't show me your ID. What do you think is doing to happen?"
    Me: "I think you're trying to intimidate me, and I don't appreciate it."
    Him: "Sir, I just dont' understand why you're walking around with a handgun."
    Me: "Because if I walked in here with my rifle, I could start a panic."

    At this point I already figure I'm getting arrested, especially when an older officer comes over. To my surprise he holds out his arm and steps between us. The older officer then looks at me and says...

    "Sir, I apologize for your being delayed, please be on your way."
    Him: "He's carrying a gun."
    Veteran Officer: "He's not breaking any law, and you're bordering on harassment." ::looks at me again:: "Have a nice day Sir."

    I took that as my cue to get the hell out of there. I admit I could have handled this better, but simple text does not sufficiently communicate how hostile this cop was being. I have an issue with officer's who think owning a badge is an exemption from behaving with civility toward others. I do however appreciate the veteran officer reigning in the rookie who was obviously still on that fresh-badge power trip.

    I bring this situation up solely to point out this is the ONLY negative incident I've had with any Louisville LEO, and when it happened a more veteran officer settled it politely upon taking note of the situation.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    You understood the laws and your rights and stood firmly on them.

    I don't see how you could have handled it much better. If something would have went wrong (like him detaining you) it would have all been on him.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member WhistlingJack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    You understood the laws and your rights and stood firmly on them.

    I don't see how you could have handled it much better. If something would have went wrong (like him detaining you) it would have all been on him.
    Well, I appreciate your affirmation.
    Last edited by WhistlingJack; 07-08-2012 at 10:07 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I think you did excellently well.
    I'm also happy the more mature officer got tired of watching Junior's shenanigans and decided to reign in the youngster.
    As for Junior, he's probably resentful, but I hope he learned a lesson in what the limits of his authority are.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuH81...ailpage#t=390s
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-08-2012 at 10:36 PM.

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    Regular Member WhistlingJack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Great job on your part. You defended your right perfectly. Congratulations. Which Thornton's was it? Welcome to the forum, we need more like you.
    Thank you for your affirmation as well. One of the Thorton's on Poplar Level, don't know the actual address.

    Interestingly, I had never seen this one particular group of officers before, and have not seen any from that group since. That suits me fine, I'd rather not have to deal with Junior again.
    Last edited by WhistlingJack; 07-08-2012 at 11:05 PM.

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    Him: "You won't surrender your weapon, and you won't show me your ID. What do you think is going to happen?"
    Me: "I think you're trying to intimidate me, and I don't appreciate it."
    Him: "Sir, I just dont' understand why you're walking around with a handgun."
    Me: "Because if I walked in here with my rifle, I could start a panic."


    At this point I already figure I'm getting arrested, especially when an older officer comes over. To my surprise he holds out his arm and steps between us. The older officer then looks at me and says...

    "Sir, I apologize for your being delayed, please be on your way."
    Him: "He's carrying a gun." !!! WHINE !!!
    Veteran Officer: "He's not breaking any law, and you're bordering on harassment." ::looks at me again:: "Have a nice day Sir."

    I took that as my cue to get the hell out of there. I admit I could have handled this better, but simple text does not sufficiently communicate how hostile this cop was being. I have an issue with officer's who think owning a badge is an exemption from behaving with civility toward others. I do however appreciate the veteran officer reigning in the rookie who was obviously still on that fresh-badge power trip.

    I bring this situation up solely to point out this is the ONLY negative incident I've had with any Louisville LEO, and when it happened a more veteran officer settled it politely upon taking note of the situation.[/QUOTE]

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________________

    I just ABSOLUTELY LOVE this LEO incident account !!!

    I'm quite certain that the *LEO ROOKIE* had a Quick Training session following this occurrence.

    Oh yeah, one more thing, ***JOHN WAYNE SYNDROME*** can happen to Anyone CARRYING !!

    That's why pre-disposition (training &/or Practice Makes Perfect) is vital to a proper attitude of having the privilege to possess a Firearm.

    Never go into a situation where You are susceptible to becoming the victim, regardless of which side of the law is being represented,,(LEO or BG) have a plan *A* / *B* / & *C* !!!
    Last edited by scott58dh; 07-09-2012 at 12:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhistlingJack View Post
    Thank you for your affirmation as well. One of the Thorton's on Poplar Level, don't know the actual address.
    Interestingly, I had never seen this one particular group of officers before, and have not seen any from that group since. That suits me fine, I'd rather not have to deal with Junior again.
    That group of LEO's could've been your *Guardian Angels* for a day !

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    Regular Member WhistlingJack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott58dh View Post
    That group of LEO's could've been your *Guardian Angels* for a day !
    You make an interesting point, I guess you never know.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott58dh View Post
    *snippy*That's why pre-disposition (training) is vital to a proper attitude of having the privilege to possess a Firearm.*snippers*
    Since when is it a privilege, and not a right? :/
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Kudos to you on your proper and direct response to the situation. It's rare to have an incident such as this in Kentucky these days but unfortunately, it does still occur from time to time. You handled this situation very well and it's great to see and read that there are some well informed officer out there as well.
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    Regular Member WhistlingJack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Kudos to you on your proper and direct response to the situation. It's rare to have an incident such as this in Kentucky these days but unfortunately, it does still occur from time to time. You handled this situation very well and it's great to see and read that there are some well informed officer out there as well.
    Thank You
    Like I said, I've been OCing for awhile and this is the only incident I've had with Louisville LEO's (and one of only 3 total), and yeah I am very grateful to the older officer, situation could have been much more of a pain otherwise.
    Last edited by WhistlingJack; 07-09-2012 at 12:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Since when is it a privilege, and not a right? :/
    Sorry !!!

    I'm get *Drain Bamaged* sometimes in a "dyslexcal" sort of way!

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    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    Well done Jack! Thank God for the senior officers on site.

    Nice recovery Scott.
    “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.” ― Plato

    Plato knew this yet today's antis still don't get it!

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    Very well done! If you ever see the elder officer again you should thank him for protecting your rights. I know it is their job and everything, but in this day and age it is wonderful to hear of an officer actually take our side and not his brother officer's. With all the police corruption these days we are constantly hearing about, it is sure nice to hear of an officer that remembers the oath he took.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 07-09-2012 at 01:39 AM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member WhistlingJack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Very well done! If you ever see the elder officer again you should thank him for protecting your rights. I know it is their job and everything, but in this day and age it is wonderful to hear of an officer actually take our side and not his brother officer's. With all the police corruption these days we are constantly hearing about, it is sure nice to hear of an officer that remembers the oath he took.
    Oh certainly, if I do see him again I intend to thank him for his intervention. Always good when a watcher is watching other watchers.

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    Regular Member P95's Avatar
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    You handled the encounter very well. Maybe Barnie will think twice before making himself look stupid.

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    This encounter would have bothered me for different reasons... if this would have been me it would have went like this..

    (Me Open Carrying)
    Officer: I need to see your concealed weapons permit

    This is where it would have changed, I would legally be required to show it to him for no reason at all. Which would have changed the way this went and the rookie LEO would have not been educated. I believe there should be a part of the show the permit on demand section that only has to legally be shown when carrying concealed and made, or if I am breaking a law period.

    If I was OC, it would have been irrational to ask me for my permit, hmmm may have found an uneasy grey area..

    Either way, nice way to handle this situation and I am glad there was an officer there for education purposes.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Good job, I would also say I would send a copy of what happened to the Chief of Police with a thank you to the veteran cop for know the laws and restraining the rookie from costing the city a lot of money. For if the rookie had arrested you, then you would have had to file a wrongful arrest and harrasment lawsuits against the city.

    Praise the veteran officer while making the chief aware he needs to train his rookies better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kywildcat581 View Post
    This encounter would have bothered me for different reasons... if this would have been me it would have went like this..

    (Me Open Carrying)
    Officer: I need to see your concealed weapons permit

    This is where it would have changed, I would legally be required to show it to him for no reason at all. Which would have changed the way this went and the rookie LEO would have not been educated. I believe there should be a part of the show the permit on demand section that only has to legally be shown when carrying concealed and made, or if I am breaking a law period.

    If I was OC, it would have been irrational to ask me for my permit, hmmm may have found an uneasy grey area..

    Either way, nice way to handle this situation and I am glad there was an officer there for education purposes.
    I don't see where you would be required to hand over your CCDW since the firearm was not concealed.

    The licensee shall carry the license at all times the licensee is carrying a concealed
    firearm or other deadly weapon and shall display the license upon request of a law
    enforcement officer

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    Quote Originally Posted by kywildcat581 View Post
    This encounter would have bothered me for different reasons... if this would have been me it would have went like this..

    (Me Open Carrying)
    Officer: I need to see your concealed weapons permit

    This is where it would have changed, I would legally be required to show it to him for no reason at all. Which would have changed the way this went and the rookie LEO would have not been educated. I believe there should be a part of the show the permit on demand section that only has to legally be shown when carrying concealed and made, or if I am breaking a law period.

    If I was OC, it would have been irrational to ask me for my permit, hmmm may have found an uneasy grey area..

    Either way, nice way to handle this situation and I am glad there was an officer there for education purposes.
    If you are stopped and you are openly carrying you are under no obligation to show your cdwl. The only time you must surrender your cdwl is if you are carrying a concealed weapon and the officer asks to see it.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    I do stand corrected... thanks...

    237.110
    (15) The licensee shall carry the license at all times the licensee is carrying a concealed firearm or other deadly weapon and shall display the license upon request of a law enforcement officer. Violation of the provisions of this
    www.handgunlaw.us 6
    subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of twenty-five dollars ($25), payable to the clerk of the District Court, but no court costs shall be assessed.

    learn something new every day!

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    Jack I cant resist this joke, Well done man, you must have balls of steel.
    "I couldn't decide if this was a resume, an online dating form, or just an introduction on a gun forum." flb_78

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    Regular Member WhistlingJack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acuzio View Post
    Jack I cant resist this joke, Well done man, you must have balls of steel.
    Ah, I see what you did there. +1 to you good Sir.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . the very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good"
    -George Washington

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    Good job Jack!

    I'll make one suggestion - when he asks why you are carrying a gun I always answer "For the same reason you are".

    And the older cop was wrong. The rookie wasn't "bordering" on harassment, he blew past that line when he demanded your permit/ID without reasonable suspicion that you were committing a crime. He was well into the realm of harassment and had clearly crossed into abuse of authority!
    Last edited by c1ogden; 07-15-2012 at 05:06 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Audio recording?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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