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Produce ID for the police?

If the police want to see your ID because you are OCing, should you give it to them?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 12.5%
  • No

    Votes: 82 68.3%
  • Generally yes, but in some cases, no (please post and explain)

    Votes: 5 4.2%
  • Generally no, but in some cases, yes (post and explain)

    Votes: 18 15.0%

  • Total voters
    120

WhistlingJack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
45
Location
Louisville, Ky
For the most part my answer is No.

I have only been asked for ID by LEO once in relation to OC'ing, he was very rude and aggressive in doing so, and thus I refused to provide my ID.
If a LEO approaches me and asks calmly and respectfully I would consider providing my ID. Doesn't mean I will, but I will consider it based on the circumstance at the time. I do not do a whole lot of walking about and if the Officer in question really wants to know my identity he will simply run the tags on my car. And if I do provide my ID that will be all they get from me, verbal or otherwise. If they do so respectfully however, I am slightly inclined to comply simply to encourage respectful attitudes from them with those they deal with in the future.

But under no circumstance will I provide ID or be cooperative with a LEO who approaches and acts rudely, boorish and or disrespectful. People who act in such ways often do so because no one calls them on their attitude. Refusing ID is the best way to avoid rewarding this attitude when the individual in question is a LEO.
 
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hammer6

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
1,461
Location
Florida
I know of no law that requires one to carry any physical form of ID on their person unless they are engaged in some privileged activity for which an ID is required. The law (and Hiibel case) as I understand it requires only that I identify myself to the officer if asked. That is to give my name and possibly address but I'm inclined to give only my name.

Arguing with a cop as to whether he has RAS or not will get you no where and it may, like it did me on at least two occasions, get you arrested even though like me you may be acquitted of all of his bogus charges by a jury at a later date. I think it best to be reasonable and polite when around cops. Have an audio or video recorder rolling at all times and give only one's name and address as per the Hiible case.

Hiibel was apparently not engaged in any criminal activity; therefore, the officer had no RAS with which a stop was warranted. Hiibel merely refused to provide his name to the officer. Look where it got him and now we have communist case law that says we must identify ourselves to a police officer if stopped. If the office believes he has RAS I would assume he has RAS. Let him determine that you're not the one he's looking for and then move on. I wouldn't argue RAS with him or her as it won't bode well for you. This I know from experience.

ALWAYS HAVE AN AUDIO OR VIDEO RECORDER ROLLING WHEN INTERACTING WITH POLICE OFFICERS.


bottom line- if it's not the law, you don't have to show ID if it's NOT a terry stop. cop has no right to ask (though he still may) if it's not a terry stop, since he has no RAS. with RAS, thus being a terry stop, you need to give ID.
 

derhammer

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
66
Location
Pennsylvania
But once again, are the police required to tell you what their RAS is, or are they only required to tell you that they have RAS?

-derhammer
 

Merlin

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
487
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
But once again, are the police required to tell you what their RAS is, or are they only required to tell you that they have RAS?

-derhammer

I have no statutory support here, just spitballin'..

Let's assume they don't have to tell you...

You can still ask. You can advise them that unless they assert RAS, your have a very defensible reason to believe that they don't. Therefore, if they refuse to assert RAS, you will refuse to treat it as a Terry stop. If, however, they are willing to assert RAS, then you will cooperate (only) as required by Hibel.

So, even if they are not required to state RAS, you can essentially roadblock until they do. Once they do assert (on recording..you DID remember your spyware, right?), now they are stuck with it, right or wrong. They are stuck with the fact that it was NOT consensual. If, later, they cannot RA their S, then they are in real trouble and they risk ANYTHING after that moment of assertion being thrown out. That's why it is worth your while to corner them on that.

So, there you go, even if they are not required by any statute to tell you, you should still be able to extract it.

If it helps persuade them, you can even tell them as much. "If you can assert RAS, then I will comply, albeit under protest, with any lawful orders. With that said, you'd better be sure..."

I just used a similar tactic yesterday involving a dispute over whether public streets become private property during a special event permit. I refused to leave until the permittee's representative would commit to asserting private property rights over 6th street. (in this case the head of securi-thugs). I told him "Listen, I'll throw you a bone here. If you assert private property rights over this space, I will leave. Long enough for us to call LEO and straighten this out."

It's so easy to corral them sometimes.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
 

Maine Expat

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
235
Location
Ukraine & Bangor Maine
I'm one of the Generally yes, votes.

For me its simply a personal choice more than a rights issue.

This is a situational thing for me. If the LEO approaches me with a neutral or friendly demeanor and just wants to chat then I have no issues with showing ID or giving my name. I can easily let him/her know that I know I don't have to, but will to keep the door open for communication. As I've posted before, I intend to try to foster more cooperation with local LEO's and I'll do whatever I can, as an ambassador in my town, to get them looking at OCers with a less critical eye. If that means I have to give a little to get them to loosen up, then that's what I'll do and in my mind it will bring us all closer to a win.

The couple I met in Burlington Coat yesterday had a great example. Ask if there was a hold up or violent crime nearby. If yes then absolutely show ID and deescalate the situation.

I was criticized for my stance on this in another thread recently, but I want to be clear this is my choice and don't intend to promote this as THE WAY. There's more than one way to skin a cat here. There's no ONE right way to get through an encounter.

I spend a few hours everyday reading posts here and elsewhere so I'm fairly up to date. I don't know it all (who really does?), but I think I know enough to handle most LEO encounters and come out of it both parties smiling.

I've also said before that if you're OCing with the "I'm gonna "school" some LEO's" kind of attitude then you should sell your gun and go to back to your video games. You're OCing for the wrong reasons and making it harder for the rest of of us.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
I'm one of the Generally yes, votes.

If the LEO approaches me with a neutral or friendly demeanor and just wants to chat then I have no issues with showing ID or giving my name.


HA!:lol::lol:

"Hey buddy, lovely days isn't it?" "I just want to chat, so go ahead a give me your ID so I can run your name and see if there's anything I might be able to arrest you for."
"Also give me that gun on your hip. Don't worry we're just chatting but I don't want anything to happen in case your info comes back that I can arrest you."
 

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
well,,,

I'm one of the Generally yes, votes.

For me its simply a personal choice more than a rights issue.

This is a situational thing for me. If the LEO approaches me with a neutral or friendly demeanor and just wants to chat then I have no issues with showing ID or giving my name. I can easily let him/her know that I know I don't have to, but will to keep the door open for communication. As I've posted before, I intend to try to foster more cooperation with local LEO's and I'll do whatever I can, as an ambassador in my town, to get them looking at OCers with a less critical eye. If that means I have to give a little to get them to loosen up, then that's what I'll do and in my mind it will bring us all closer to a win.

The couple I met in Burlington Coat yesterday had a great example. Ask if there was a hold up or violent crime nearby. If yes then absolutely show ID and deescalate the situation.

I was criticized for my stance on this in another thread recently, but I want to be clear this is my choice and don't intend to promote this as THE WAY. There's more than one way to skin a cat here. There's no ONE right way to get through an encounter.

I spend a few hours everyday reading posts here and elsewhere so I'm fairly up to date. I don't know it all (who really does?), but I think I know enough to handle most LEO encounters and come out of it both parties smiling.

I've also said before that if you're OCing with the "I'm gonna "school" some LEO's" kind of attitude then you should sell your gun and go to back to your video games. You're OCing for the wrong reasons and making it harder for the rest of of us.


Hi there,,, Im a neutral or friendly cop....
let me disarm you,, for your safety...
I will just run your numbers... to see that its not stolen.
I will just run your ID to make sure youre not a felon...


I will do this to anybody that carries a gun... cell phone... breifcase.........

It is for your safety... security....
Im just doing my job...


You are a detrement to my... our... freedom and our liberty!
 

derhammer

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
66
Location
Pennsylvania
I agree with 1245A. Just by being on this forum I promise we are all on a list in some government agency. Ron Paul supporters, gun owners, conspiracy theorists etc. - people who question the government, they are put on lists (this is not a "theory," it's all open fact that's been freely admitted) with "Fusion Centers." If you think that cooperation with the government is going to help anything, you are sorely mistaken. This government is the mortal enemy of liberty.

I think I have to say you shouldn't show ID unless legally required. This is more true the more "scary" of a gun you're carrying. Because, if you're on a list now for supporting gun rights, imagine what kind of list you'll be on if you are discovered to possess a high-powered firearm or something. And don't think they can't get your name off the police report; people are literally on lists for having Ron Paul bumperstickers. "This is what a police state looks like."

-derhammer
 

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
What is a "high powered" firearm? In similar vein, does that mean there are "low powered" firearms?

I realize you probably mean full auto weapons or weapons with high capacity round count, but some media outlets have recently used the term "high powered firearms" and used it in a distinctively 'anti', weapons/fear mongering manner, and it doesn't help our image to use such terms.

If you did use it because you meant something other than what I've mentioned, I'd be interested in hearing your elaboration.
 

derhammer

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
66
Location
Pennsylvania
Any weapon that could conceivably be used properly to defend against tyranny. A war weapon. AK-47, AR-15, AR-10 etc. I had an AK-47 in my mind when I said that; I agree it's a somewhat incorrect term, but you get the idea. If they find out you have "real guns," that escalates the threat you pose in their eyes.

-derhammer
 

GLADad

New member
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
5
Location
Canon City
Even though I am not required to give ID just for OC, I don't have anything to hide, and I don't mind being cooperative so I say "yes." They'll run my ID, see there is nothing there and leave me alone. In the future if I ever run across the LEO again, I think they might respect me and my rights, because I was cooperative and got both of us on with our day without being a pain.

I have never been asked for ID by a LEO before, but I would rather they leave the scene not having doubts. Also, if other citizens witnessed the encounter, they'll realize I am not a threat, and might be more comfortable with other OC'ers rather than if I were refusing to cooperate.

This needs to be a team effort, I'm not going to tell other people to present ID, but if we are cooperative and respectful with LEO's especially around other citizens, than more people will be comfortable with our choice to OC. However if we are a jerk, uncooperative, and disrespectful, that is exactly how we will be treated. Just my opinion.
 

Merlin

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
487
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Even though I am not required to give ID just for OC, I don't have anything to hide, and I don't mind being cooperative so I say "yes." They'll run my ID, see there is nothing there and leave me alone. In the future if I ever run across the LEO again, I think they might respect me and my rights, because I was cooperative

Holy crap dude, if you're gonna post stuff like this, you need to post a warning at the top like this:

CAUTION: PUT DOWN YOUR BEVERAGE NOW.

'Cause my nose is burning. Damn that was hilarious. Tell me you don't actually believe this? Really? Well, I won't discount your opinion, it's your right. I'll say this. I think naivety is quaint, but certainly not in your best interests.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
Even though I am not required to give ID just for OC, I don't have anything to hide, and I don't mind being cooperative so I say "yes."

They'll run my ID, see there is nothing there and leave me alone. In the future if I ever run across the LEO again, I think they might respect me and my rights,

One time, when I was 14 on the bus at school, this big kid named T-bone punch me in the arm, and told me to lick his shoes. Yeah I licked em real good and convinced myself that he "might respect me and my rights" more because I did it. It was a great day for liberty.
 

Maine Expat

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
235
Location
Ukraine & Bangor Maine
Even though I am not required to give ID just for OC, I don't have anything to hide, and I don't mind being cooperative so I say "yes." They'll run my ID, see there is nothing there and leave me alone. In the future if I ever run across the LEO again, I think they might respect me and my rights, because I was cooperative and got both of us on with our day without being a pain.

I have never been asked for ID by a LEO before, but I would rather they leave the scene not having doubts. Also, if other citizens witnessed the encounter, they'll realize I am not a threat, and might be more comfortable with other OC'ers rather than if I were refusing to cooperate.

This needs to be a team effort, I'm not going to tell other people to present ID, but if we are cooperative and respectful with LEO's especially around other citizens, than more people will be comfortable with our choice to OC. However if we are a jerk, uncooperative, and disrespectful, that is exactly how we will be treated. Just my opinion.

Ah, so now there TWO of us that can actually REASON with LEOs instead of creating needless conflict.

And you stated the exact same reasons as me too. Create an inroad to communication and understanding now and later OCing becomes a non issue.

And for the record, I will NEVER just give up my side arm without trying to reach a compromise first. Not all LEOs are dicks, why do so many OCers have to be dicks themselves. I'm not one of those nut jobs marching up & down the sidewalk looking for a confrontation and a chance to be the next youtube star. I'm just going about my normal business and except for a few OMG looks, I have had no issues and a couple of compliments.

You people need to get over yourselves and lay off those of us who have made a different personal choice than you.
 
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MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
For the most part my answer is No.
But under no circumstance will I provide ID or be cooperative with a LEO who approaches and acts rudely, boorish and or disrespectful. People who act in such ways often do so because no one calls them on their attitude. Refusing ID is the best way to avoid rewarding this attitude when the individual in question is a LEO.

Exactly. I had a situation where a LEO, who knew I was legal, stopped me about OC, put his weapon in my stomach repeatedly, and lied about it in his report. The LEO was disrespectful and dangerous (hand holding the weapon was shaking). He got pushy, I wanted to hear his RAS. He demanded ID, I refused.
 
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F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
The way the law in my state reads I only have to identify myself, not produce documentation, if a LEO has RAS that I have committed, am committing, or am about to commit a crime.

From the Code of Alabama:
Section 15-5-30

Authority of peace officer to stop and question.

A sheriff or other officer acting as sheriff, his deputy or any constable, acting within their respective counties, any marshal, deputy marshal or policeman of any incorporated city or town within the limits of the county or any highway patrolman or state trooper may stop any person abroad in a public place whom he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his actions.


Do please notice that the wording says he may demand your name, address, and an explanation of your actions. Nowhere in that language does it say "produce an identity document."


Please notice it also says he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense So if you are just walking down the street minding your own danged business he has no RAS to demand ID.
 
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Maine Expat

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
235
Location
Ukraine & Bangor Maine
Exactly. I had a situation where a LEO, who knew I was legal, stopped me about OC, put his weapon in my stomach repeatedly, and lied about it in his report. The LEO was disrespectful and dangerous (hand holding the weapon was shaking). He got pushy, I wanted to hear his RAS. He demanded ID, I refused.

This is one of those situations where I would do that same as you did. I would not cooperate with a dick LEO.
 
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