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Thread: Pocket Pistol Safety.

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    Pocket Pistol Safety.

    Depending on the conditions, sometimes I will carry my Sig P238 in my pocket in a leather galco holster rather than my Glock 23 in my armordillo concealment owb holster. However, I carry it with the safety off in my pocket. I was just curious if I am the only one that does this.

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    I'll carry my Radom P64 without the safety in my pocket but the double action pull is so heavy it wouldn't discharge, but I wouldn't advise it on others without some insane double action pull
    but then again i dont use a holster just a cargo pocket as a backup to my open 1911A1
    Last edited by spinks8824; 07-15-2012 at 02:47 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Mechanical safeties on modern firearms are there to prevent you from screwing up when the safety between your ears is not engaged and functioning. Most modern firearms are drop safe, slip-out-of-your-hands safe, and just about every kind of other safe.

    So long as you do not have anything else in your pocket you should be good to go. Anything in the pocket big enough to either catch the trigger and pull it when you didn't want to do that, or small enough to get into a part and jam things up is going to eventually be bad news.

    My biggest gripe about carrying in the pocket without a holster is that too often the pocket rocket slips to a position that is not ideal for drawing.

    stay safe.
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    Yea, the galco holster prevents anything from touching the trigger, including my finger if i got really stupid with it. I dont keep anything else in that pocket anyways. I was just curious if anyone else did the same.

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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    I'm not getting on anybody here and I don't want to start any wars. I've just never really understood the reasons for not using a safety on a gun. I get the point that time is an issue and seconds count (Hell, split seconds). But like when I'm deer hunting and I see deer. (If knowing for sure they are deer and not humans), While I am raising my gun, simultaneously, my hand is taking off the safety. All one step, not two. With a handgun, it would seem that the same thing can be done. You still have to draw the firearm, raise it, point it. It seems that at that same time, one could swipe their thumb (or not) across the safety. My Sig P226 doesn't have an external safety, but if it did, I would use it. Like I say, just my opinion. Any counterpoints are welcome. Have a good one!
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Some folks who carry a back-up in a configuration that is dissimilar to their primary carry gun like to remove as much ambiguity as possible in the operation og the BUG. For example, I know folks who carry a .380 as back-up to a 1911. We all know the operation of the 1911's thumb safety is downwards for firing. If your BUG has the lever going upwards there is a very real chance you might keep trying to disengage a 1911 safety in the middle of a highly-stressed situation of using the BUG. Leaving the safety in the non-engaged position prevents any such ambiguity.

    Some folks who carry a DA/SA do not see a need for a safety device since there is not a danger (regardless of how remote) of the hammer coming off the sear and falling onto the firing pin and a normal* drop is not likely to drive the firing pin forward sufficiently to ignite the primer.

    Some folks just not like someone else deciding what they ought to do.

    stay safe.

    *Standardized drop tests subject the hammer/firing pin to a substantial strike force in the actual drop phase, then subject the hammer/firing pin to a blow at a force several times what would be encountered in any actual drop.
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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Some folks just not like someone else deciding what they ought to do.


    Yeah, it's just an opinion and a curiosity. It doesn't matter to me how anybody else chooses to carry.
    Last edited by hjmoosejaw; 07-15-2012 at 02:24 PM.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    mj, the overly heavy DA pull on a Sig is your safety. When paired with a good holster, traditional decock only Sigs are incredibly safe guns. I've been carrying one for 6 years.

    There is nothing wrong with utilizing a thumb safety on a pistol, but make sure that you practice heavily to make sure that you remember to take it off instinctively if you ever have to use it for real.

    Also note that if you're using a DA/SA with a thumb safety, such as a FNP, and you're going with the hammer down and safety on, that you'll also need to be good at the DA-SA transition, which takes considerably more practice to be rapidly accurate with than a single mode trigger. Having to undo a retention holster, followed by a thumb safety and THEN the heavy pull to easy pull transition, that is basically stacking the deck against you, especially in a life and death situation when the adrenalin bath hits your brain and fine motor skills are out the window. If you feel strongly about it, you can practice around it and do okay as it sounds like you do now, just know that most people don't do that, and for good reason.

    Most people I know who are very serious about self defense techniques, sometimes after years of beating around the bush, end up using a constant action striker fired gun with no safeties and a very good holster. I'm not saying I know that you're a novice because indeed I don't know you, and I'm not saying that you'll end up with the same opinion, but if you are newer to serious defensive shooting, I'm just saying beware of the fact you may end up coming to the same conclusion eventually.

    Hope that answers your inquiry, and I hope it doesn't come off as challenging, because you should do what works for you.
    Last edited by Michigander; 07-15-2012 at 05:17 PM.
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    Regular Member hjmoosejaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    mj, the overly heavy DA pull on a Sig is your safety. When paired with a good holster, traditional decock only Sigs are incredibly safe guns. I've been carrying one for 6 years.

    There is nothing wrong with utilizing a thumb safety on a pistol, but make sure that you practice heavily to make sure that you remember to take it off instinctively if you ever have to use it for real.

    Also note that if you're using a DA/SA with a thumb safety, such as a FNP, and you're going with the hammer down and safety on, that you'll also need to be good at the DA-SA transition, which takes considerably more practice to be rapidly accurate with than a single mode trigger. Having to undo a retention holster, followed by a thumb safety and THEN the heavy pull to easy pull transition, that is basically stacking the deck against you, especially in a life and death situation when the adrenalin bath hits your brain and fine motor skills are out the window. If you feel strongly about it, you can practice around it and do okay as it sounds like you do now, just know that most people don't do that, and for good reason.

    Most people I know who are very serious about self defense techniques, sometimes after years of beating around the bush, end up using a constant action striker fired gun with no safeties and a very good holster. I'm not saying I know that you're a novice because indeed I don't know you, and I'm not saying that you'll end up with the same opinion, but if you are newer to serious defensive shooting, I'm just saying beware of the fact you may end up coming to the same conclusion eventually.

    Hope that answers your inquiry, and I hope it doesn't come off as challenging, because you should do what works for you.


    I get ya! I can see points from both sides. A coupe of things that you said, I strongly agree with. Practice,practice,practice, and a good holster. I imagine if I were in a dark alley, I'd probably limit anything time consuming vs. standing around at an outdoor event with kids chasing each other around or something like that. I think the main thing is, because a real life situation is definitely higher stress, no matter which way somebody chooses to carry, they should practice so much that it becomes second nature to get the gun out and ready. In certain circumstances, one would have to weigh the safety factor with the time savings. Of course the argument could be made that if you carry one way, one place and another way, another place, then you are defeating the practice until it's second nature theory. You would have to think, which mode am I in? I don't know, decisions,decisions. To each his own, I guess. Have a good one!
    Last edited by hjmoosejaw; 07-15-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    The sig p238 is a single action auto, very similar to the colt mustang of some years back. It is my understanding that it is basically a smaller version of the 1911.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    mj, the overly heavy DA pull on a Sig is your safety. When paired with a good holster, traditional decock only Sigs are incredibly safe guns. I've been carrying one for 6 years.

    There is nothing wrong with utilizing a thumb safety on a pistol, but make sure that you practice heavily to make sure that you remember to take it off instinctively if you ever have to use it for real.

    Also note that if you're using a DA/SA with a thumb safety, such as a FNP, and you're going with the hammer down and safety on, that you'll also need to be good at the DA-SA transition, which takes considerably more practice to be rapidly accurate with than a single mode trigger. Having to undo a retention holster, followed by a thumb safety and THEN the heavy pull to easy pull transition, that is basically stacking the deck against you, especially in a life and death situation when the adrenalin bath hits your brain and fine motor skills are out the window. If you feel strongly about it, you can practice around it and do okay as it sounds like you do now, just know that most people don't do that, and for good reason.

    Most people I know who are very serious about self defense techniques, sometimes after years of beating around the bush, end up using a constant action striker fired gun with no safeties and a very good holster. I'm not saying I know that you're a novice because indeed I don't know you, and I'm not saying that you'll end up with the same opinion, but if you are newer to serious defensive shooting, I'm just saying beware of the fact you may end up coming to the same conclusion eventually.

    Hope that answers your inquiry, and I hope it doesn't come off as challenging, because you should do what works for you.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinks8824 View Post
    I'll carry my Radom P64 without the safety in my pocket but the double action pull is so heavy it wouldn't discharge, but I wouldn't advise it on others without some insane double action pull
    but then again i dont use a holster just a cargo pocket as a backup to my open 1911A1
    As I have posted elsewhere, do NOT carry the P-64 chambered without the safety on. The safety, for those who don't know blocks the hammer from the firing pin completely.

    Without that mechanism in place, it is unlikely but still possible for it to discharge upon hitting the ground or otherwise having the hammer struck. Carry it with the safety on, or unchambered.
    Last edited by Michigander; 07-22-2012 at 09:43 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    As I have posted elsewhere, do NOT carry the P-64 chambered without the safety on. The safety, for those who don't know blocks the hammer from the firing pin completely.

    Without that mechanism in place, it is unlikely but still possible for it to discharge upon hitting the ground or otherwise having the hammer struck. Carry it with the safety on, or unchambered.
    That is not correct, the P-64 is the same as the P-63 except for the alloy frame. They both employ a trigger pin that is raised by pulling the trigger fully to the rear. The pin raises the firing pin away from the block to allow the hammer to strike it. Otherwise the firing pin is too low and the firing pin block when the saftey is on fire will block it in the case of a drop. If you examine the hammer you will also see the hammer is overhanded at the top, this is what actually strikes the raised firing pin when the trigger is fully to the rear.

    The P-64 is totally drop safe to carry with safety off.

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    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is not correct, the P-64 is the same as the P-63 except for the alloy frame. They both employ a trigger pin that is raised by pulling the trigger fully to the rear. The pin raises the firing pin away from the block to allow the hammer to strike it. Otherwise the firing pin is too low and the firing pin block when the saftey is on fire will block it in the case of a drop. If you examine the hammer you will also see the hammer is overhanded at the top, this is what actually strikes the raised firing pin when the trigger is fully to the rear.

    The P-64 is totally drop safe to carry with safety off.
    Thank you for clarifying this, WW. I just bought a P-64, and I'm planning on carrying it with one-in-the-pipe, decocked, safety off.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0wman View Post
    Thank you for clarifying this, WW. I just bought a P-64, and I'm planning on carrying it with one-in-the-pipe, decocked, safety off.
    Do yourself a favor and have a gunsmith remove the grooving from the trigger. With the heavy trigger pull it will increase the comfort considerably firing double action.

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    On occasion (dress up) I carry my P64 in a fobus paddle. I,too, carry chambered and safety off and I feel this a safe carry. The major safety weapon, as we all know, is between the ears. The weapon is safe as walkingwolf said. Check http://www.p64resource.com/index.php it has a great deal of info on the P64.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is not correct, the P-64 is the same as the P-63 except for the alloy frame. They both employ a trigger pin that is raised by pulling the trigger fully to the rear. The pin raises the firing pin away from the block to allow the hammer to strike it. Otherwise the firing pin is too low and the firing pin block when the saftey is on fire will block it in the case of a drop. If you examine the hammer you will also see the hammer is overhanded at the top, this is what actually strikes the raised firing pin when the trigger is fully to the rear.

    The P-64 is totally drop safe to carry with safety off.


    http://www.p64resource.com/forum/vie...php?f=1&t=3942
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    You use a post on another forum as a cite???

    Almost all ND of firearms are caused by the booger finger, but nobody admits to them, human nature. The hammer, trigger, firing pin are all designed that the only way the hammer can contact the firing pin is with the trigger pulled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 11B2O View Post
    Depending on the conditions, sometimes I will carry my Sig P238 in my pocket in a leather galco holster rather than my Glock 23 in my armordillo concealment owb holster. However, I carry it with the safety off in my pocket. I was just curious if I am the only one that does this.

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    You carry a single-action pistol in your pocket with the safety off? Are you carrying a round in the chamber? If so (and I assume you do) do you understand that the only thing that prevents that gun from firing is the manual safety? The P238 does not have a grip safety, and once you disengage the thumb safety there is nothing preventing the pistol from firing if the trigger is bumped. With a single action pistol and a light trigger pull, I would not reccommend carrying in your pocket at all, and especially not without a holster and the safety engaged. I can understand carrying a DA pistol with a heavy pull weight of 11 to 12 pounds and a long trigger pull, but not a single action with a pull of around 7.5 pounds and an extremely short trigger travel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    You use a post on another forum as a cite???

    Almost all ND of firearms are caused by the booger finger, but nobody admits to them, human nature. The hammer, trigger, firing pin are all designed that the only way the hammer can contact the firing pin is with the trigger pulled.
    Actually most of your modern-day pistols are designed so the firing pin (striker) can't contact the primer of a cartridge. Most firearms have a firing pin (striker) block to prevent accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped or what not. The hammer can still contact the firing pin, or the striker can still release on those pistols without a hammer, but the stop prevents the firing pin (striker) from contacting the primer.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 09-06-2012 at 09:59 PM.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Actually most of your modern-day pistols are designed so the firing pin (striker) can't contact the primer of a cartridge. Most firearms have a firing pin (striker) block to prevent accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped or what not. The hammer can still contact the firing pin, or the striker can still release on those pistols without a hammer, but the stop prevents the firing pin (striker) from contacting the primer.
    It is not designed that way on the P64 and P63, there is besides the overhanded part of the hammer a relieve cut into the hammer that sits over the firing pin with the hammer at rest. The only way I could see what is claimed is with a extremely dirty firing pin stuck in the upward position, and that again would be operator error. My firing pin retracts to the safe position even if the handgun is held upside down, and shaken. The only way it goes up is for me to with the slide removed is push it up manually, and it comes right back down as soon as pressure is taken off. Any handgun with a inertia firing pin can be fired if it is dropped hard enough and it has nothing to do with the hammer. It takes four to five feet on a 1911 on concrete to make it fire by dropping it on the muzzle. Again has nothing to do with the hammer. I would imagine that the P64 might fire from a high enough muzzle drop. Just don't drop it on the muzzle.

    Most of the ND's I have seen with semi autos are loading and unloading, everybody claims they didn't touch the trigger. I actually watched a LEO at a clearing barrel rack a 1911, you guessed it, with the booger finger on the trigger~BANG, and then he swore up and down he didn't touch the trigger.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Actually most of your modern-day pistols are designed so the firing pin (striker) can't contact the primer of a cartridge. Most firearms have a firing pin (striker) block to prevent accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped or what not. The hammer can still contact the firing pin, or the striker can still release on those pistols without a hammer, but the stop prevents the firing pin (striker) from contacting the primer.
    Yep, and to my knowledge the P-64 does not. Very much like the CZ52 I got shot by when it fell to the ground, landed on the hammer and shot me despite it being claimed to be drop safe. Whether walking wolf wants to admit it or not, it does happen, and it happens most often with old commie guns. I do hope it never happens to anyone here who carries a P-64 hot.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    My biggest gripe about carrying in the pocket without a holster is that too often the pocket rocket slips to a position that is not ideal for drawing.

    stay safe.
    Bobbing the hammer probably helps with that I hear, but I just can't bring myself to cut up a perfectly good hammer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Yep, and to my knowledge the P-64 does not. Very much like the CZ52 I got shot by when it fell to the ground, landed on the hammer and shot me despite it being claimed to be drop safe. Whether walking wolf wants to admit it or not, it does happen, and it happens most often with old commie guns. I do hope it never happens to anyone here who carries a P-64 hot.
    Absolutely! Pre-lawsuit firearms are probably NOT drop-safe. I like that modern firearms are MOSTLY drop-safe, but I wish they would have began manufacturing them this way on their own terms, and not because someone sued the manufacturer. Even modern-day firearms can have defects that would allow them to fire without the trigger being pulled; this is why the majority of firearms that have defects are recalled.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Yep, and to my knowledge the P-64 does not. Very much like the CZ52 I got shot by when it fell to the ground, landed on the hammer and shot me despite it being claimed to be drop safe. Whether walking wolf wants to admit it or not, it does happen, and it happens most often with old commie guns. I do hope it never happens to anyone here who carries a P-64 hot.
    CZ does not have the same type of safety as a 64, different gun, I hope I am not around someone who has negligent discharges and makes excuses. I don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy either.

    I had a similar discussion on 1911's magically going bang, and tested the claim on both my 1911 and my star and could not get either gun to fire by the way the person claimed. Judge Judy has a saying on stories, I agree with her. Do you even own a P64? If I can find a way to test mine without actually damaging the hammer I may attempt it.

    BTW negligent discharges happen with all handguns, even ones with the transfer bar. Why? Because of the booger finger. There are reports all the time of Glocks magically going boom, it is BS.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Yes, I have a P-64, and for the reasons I stated, as well as because the trigger, capacity, recoil, rust resistance, and mag release all suck, plus the 115 grain JHP's are no longer imported, it almost never sees the light of day anymore.

    Evidently you know more than I do about the inner workings of the design, and that suits me just fine, because I don't trust mine to carry it for a multitude of reasons. Basic field stripping and cleaning is likely all mine will ever see.

    I cited two examples of people who evidently had their guns break mechanically, leading to ND's. If you would further like to diagnose why that happened, and perhaps continue to use it as a means to rant, then by all means, please do enlighten us.
    Last edited by Michigander; 09-06-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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