Pocket Pistol Safety.

Michigander · Sep 6, 2012

KYGlockster said:
Actually most of your modern-day pistols are designed so the firing pin (striker) can't contact the primer of a cartridge. Most firearms have a firing pin (striker) block to prevent accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped or what not. The hammer can still contact the firing pin, or the striker can still release on those pistols without a hammer, but the stop prevents the firing pin (striker) from contacting the primer.

Yep, and to my knowledge the P-64 does not. Very much like the CZ52 I got shot by when it fell to the ground, landed on the hammer and shot me despite it being claimed to be drop safe. Whether walking wolf wants to admit it or not, it does happen, and it happens most often with old commie guns. I do hope it never happens to anyone here who carries a P-64 hot.

WalkingWolf · Sep 6, 2012

skidmark said:
My biggest gripe about carrying in the pocket without a holster is that too often the pocket rocket slips to a position that is not ideal for drawing.

stay safe.

Bobbing the hammer probably helps with that I hear, but I just can't bring myself to cut up a perfectly good hammer.

KYGlockster · Sep 6, 2012

Michigander said:
Yep, and to my knowledge the P-64 does not. Very much like the CZ52 I got shot by when it fell to the ground, landed on the hammer and shot me despite it being claimed to be drop safe. Whether walking wolf wants to admit it or not, it does happen, and it happens most often with old commie guns. I do hope it never happens to anyone here who carries a P-64 hot.

Absolutely! Pre-lawsuit firearms are probably NOT drop-safe. I like that modern firearms are MOSTLY drop-safe, but I wish they would have began manufacturing them this way on their own terms, and not because someone sued the manufacturer. Even modern-day firearms can have defects that would allow them to fire without the trigger being pulled; this is why the majority of firearms that have defects are recalled.

WalkingWolf · Sep 6, 2012

Michigander said:
Yep, and to my knowledge the P-64 does not. Very much like the CZ52 I got shot by when it fell to the ground, landed on the hammer and shot me despite it being claimed to be drop safe. Whether walking wolf wants to admit it or not, it does happen, and it happens most often with old commie guns. I do hope it never happens to anyone here who carries a P-64 hot.

CZ does not have the same type of safety as a 64, different gun, I hope I am not around someone who has negligent discharges and makes excuses. I don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy either.

I had a similar discussion on 1911's magically going bang, and tested the claim on both my 1911 and my star and could not get either gun to fire by the way the person claimed. Judge Judy has a saying on stories, I agree with her. Do you even own a P64? If I can find a way to test mine without actually damaging the hammer I may attempt it.

BTW negligent discharges happen with all handguns, even ones with the transfer bar. Why? Because of the booger finger. There are reports all the time of Glocks magically going boom, it is BS.

Michigander · Sep 6, 2012

Yes, I have a P-64, and for the reasons I stated, as well as because the trigger, capacity, recoil, rust resistance, and mag release all suck, plus the 115 grain JHP's are no longer imported, it almost never sees the light of day anymore.

Evidently you know more than I do about the inner workings of the design, and that suits me just fine, because I don't trust mine to carry it for a multitude of reasons. Basic field stripping and cleaning is likely all mine will ever see.

I cited two examples of people who evidently had their guns break mechanically, leading to ND's. If you would further like to diagnose why that happened, and perhaps continue to use it as a means to rant, then by all means, please do enlighten us.

WalkingWolf · Sep 6, 2012

Michigander said:
Yes, I have a P-64, and for the reasons I stated, as well as because the trigger, capacity, rust resistance, and mag release all suck, plus the 115 grain JHP's are no longer imported, so it almost never sees the light of day anymore.

Evidently you know more than I do about the inner workings of the design, and that suits me just fine, because I don't trust mine to carry it for a multitude of reasons. Basic field stripping and cleaning is likely all mine will ever see.

I cited two examples of people who evidently had their guns break mechanically, leading to ND's. If you would further like to diagnose why that happened, and perhaps continue to use it as a means to rant, then by all means, please do enlighten us.

Cite some reliable studies, not others claims. The Glock has got a unwarranted reputation because of people not willing to admit they messed up. I have only seen one person admit they screwed up with a ND, and that was probably because he recorded himself doing it. Yet dozens of people came forward and tried to blame it on his holster. The CZ 82 does not have a decocker, the firing pin is not mounted into the slide the same as a 64. To lower the hammer on a CZ one must pull the trigger and hold the hammer. The firing pin in a 82 from pictures appears to be mounted the same way as a 1911. So if there is a firing pin safety it may be in the frame or maybe it does not have one. They are two different guns even though both communist guns. Much the same as a charter arms is not a colt, or a Remington rifle the same as an H&R.

30 years ago I had a police officer go from reporting being shot, to claiming ND, then claiming suicide, then the real story came out. He had been caught with his GF also a police officer, doing the nasty when his wife caught him and shot him in the chest with a .22 rifle. There always is a rest of the story.

KYGlockster · Sep 6, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
CZ does not have the same type of safety as a 64, different gun, I hope I am not around someone who has negligent discharges and makes excuses. I don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy either.

I had a similar discussion on 1911's magically going bang, and tested the claim on both my 1911 and my star and could not get either gun to fire by the way the person claimed. Judge Judy has a saying on stories, I agree with her. Do you even own a P64? If I can find a way to test mine without actually damaging the hammer I may attempt it.

BTW negligent discharges happen with all handguns, even ones with the transfer bar. Why? Because of the booger finger. There are reports all the time of Glocks magically going boom, it is BS.

No kidding! If you place your finger on the damn trigger it will fire; I believe we all know that here, and we also know this is the cause for the majority of what people call "accidental discharges." What we are trying to say, and which will obviously not seep its way into that head of yours, is that guns can fire when dropped, especially old ones. If we were to believe you, then there would never have been a firearm that has fired because it fell on the ground, because according to you "It can't happen." Put your finger in the trigger and pull the trigger: the gun will go boom. This is why a gun is manufactured with a trigger, because without it we would not have a way to fire the gun! This is NOT the only way a gun could possibly discharge though! I have heard numerous accounts from family who has been through numerous wars speak of people dropping firearms and them making a loud noise. I have heard of these accounts on the Internet, through friends, etc. To say the only way a gun will ever fire is by pressing the trigger is absurd. Yes, the majority of ND's is because someone put their finger on the trigger and pressed, but not all of them!

KYGlockster · Sep 6, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
Cite some reliable studies, not others claims. The Glock has got a unwarranted reputation because of people not willing to admit they messed up. I have only seen one person admit they screwed up with a ND, and that was probably because he recorded himself doing it. Yet dozens of people came forward and tried to blame it on his holster. The CZ 82 does not have a decocker, the firing pin is not mounted into the slide the same as a 64. To lower the hammer on a CZ one must pull the trigger and hold the hammer. The firing pin in a 82 from pictures appears to be mounted the same way as a 1911. So if there is a firing pin safety it may be in the frame or maybe it does not have one. They are two different guns even though both communist guns. Much the same as a charter arms is not a colt, or a Remington rifle the same as an H&R.

30 years ago I had a police officer go from reporting being shot, to claiming ND, then claiming suicide, then the real story came out. He had been caught with his GF also a police officer, doing the nasty when his wife caught him and shot him in the chest with a .22 rifle. There always is a rest of the story.

Can you cite some reliable studies where it has been PROVEN that the only way EVERY gun in the World will fire is if someone presses the trigger? I didn't think so!

And I believe you meant to say "attempted suicide." It is hard for someone that is dead to speak. Although I am sure you can devise an argument to suggest otherwise!

WalkingWolf · Sep 7, 2012

KYGlockster said:
Can you cite some reliable studies where it has been PROVEN that the only way EVERY gun in the World will fire is if someone presses the trigger? I didn't think so!

And I believe you meant to say "attempted suicide." It is hard for someone that is dead to speak. Although I am sure you can devise an argument to suggest otherwise!

Best cite there is to booger finger stupidity;

[video=youtube;zYvAxLX6OzE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=fvwrel[/video]

Notice how in the beginning he accepts blame, but then puts it on the holster(makes an excuse) while claiming not to put it on his holster. Safety is between the ears. Firearm mechanisms are second. It only takes common sense to know what the trigger is intended for on a firearm, it also is human nature to blame somebody or something else for failure to use the primary safety device(between the ears).

WalkingWolf · Sep 7, 2012

[video=youtube;Et33bbA0GeM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et33bbA0GeM[/video]

WalkingWolf · Sep 7, 2012

Check out the how this gun magically goes bang

[video=youtube;V5so9b3lFuA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5so9b3lFuA[/video]

KYGlockster · Sep 7, 2012

Yes, these are excellent videos that show people how ignorant it is to place your finger on the trigger of a loaded firearm. Again, I agree that probably 99% of ND'S happen because of this stupidity, or lack of awareness. However, I also know that some firearms can fire by being dropped at the right angle. These videos are great to show people how to not control a firearm, but they do not prove that the only way a gun can go BOOM is by pulling the trigger; these videos simply show how easy it is to "negligently" fire your weapon when you are not expecting to.

WalkingWolf · Sep 7, 2012

[video=youtube;FY4bPC_301Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY4bPC_301Q[/video]

Notice the booger finger in the trigger guard.

WalkingWolf · Sep 7, 2012

[video=youtube;LjCczTWqKx8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjCczTWqKx8[/video]

One thing about the videos is they cannot blame anybody but themselves, time after time the booger finger causes the ND. It's easy when no witness or video is around to blame it on the gun.

Michigander · Sep 7, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
Cite some reliable studies, not others claims.

Proving it's safe mechanically falls upon your shoulders, since you're the one who wants to say the 64 is safe despite others claims, and the blatant fact that it doesn't have a pin block other than the manual safety.

Glock isn't really on topic, because it's a thoroughly drop safe gun. The issue is that the action is so smooth that you just about can't hear a round being chambered, and the only way to dry fire it is by charging the slide. A dry firing session with a Glock, especially if the user is stupid enough to be practicing mag swaps with loaded magazines, could more easily turn into an oh **** moment than with a lot of other pistols. The relatively light trigger pull combined with fingers on the trigger do also lead to unintended discharges it seems more often than with other guns. Such as a local man who ended up blowing his junk off. And yes, this is all exclusively a matter of operator error.

The gun I got shot by was at the time strapped into a holster. I have heard two first hand accounts from others of this sort of thing happening with CZ52's, two more second hand accounts, and one more which also bears mentioning with a Tokarev, none of these instances being related to a trigger being pulled. We could also consider the long history of carrying 5 shots in SAA type guns, because of this very issue. I've heard many first hand accounts of old derringers falling and discharging. How about Ruger's recalling all of their pre pin block revolvers? Saying it's all a matter of pulling the trigger stupidly is simply untrue. And it is with that sense of caution that I look at a commie design from the 50's with no trigger deactivated firing pin block. Seeing two first hand accounts of the mechanism failing only further strengthens my caution.

WalkingWolf · Sep 7, 2012

Michigander said:
Proving it's safe mechanically falls upon your shoulders, since you're the one who wants to say the 64 is safe despite others claims, and the blatant fact that it doesn't have a pin block other than the manual safety.

Glock isn't really on topic, because it's a thoroughly drop safe gun. The issue is that the action is so smooth that you just about can't hear a round being chambered, and the only way to dry fire it is by charging the slide. A dry firing session with a Glock, especially if the user is stupid enough to be practicing mag swaps with loaded magazines, could more easily turn into an oh **** moment than with a lot of other pistols. The relatively light trigger pull combined with fingers on the trigger do also lead to unintended discharges it seems more often than with other guns. Such as a local man who ended up blowing his junk off. And yes, this is all exclusively a matter of operator error.

The gun I got shot by was at the time strapped into a holster. I have heard two first hand accounts from others of this sort of thing happening with CZ52's, two more second hand accounts, and one more which also bears mentioning with a Tokarev, none of these instances being related to a trigger being pulled. We could also consider the long history of carrying 5 shots in SAA type guns, because of this very issue. I've heard many first hand accounts of old derringers falling and discharging. How about Ruger's recalling all of their pre pin block revolvers? Saying it's all a matter of pulling the trigger stupidly is simply untrue. And it is with that sense of caution that I look at a commie design from the 50's with no trigger deactivated firing pin block. Seeing two first hand accounts of the mechanism failing only further strengthens my caution.

The P64 is not a SAA or a Ruger or a CZ! The image of the firing pin shows the spring and follower on top of a P 63-64 firing pin. When the FP is in the lower position the hammer is not only blocked from striking it there is a notch in the hammer that further prevents contact. Without the trigger being pulled the gun CANNOT fire by a hammer blow to the FP. It is mechanically impossible, I repeat it is mechanically impossible. The only way for the hammer to contact the FP is for the trigger to raise a pin that raises the FP.

KYGlockster · Sep 8, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
[video=youtube;LjCczTWqKx8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjCczTWqKx8[/video]

One thing about the videos is they cannot blame anybody but themselves, time after time the booger finger causes the ND. It's easy when no witness or video is around to blame it on the gun.

Sure is, but this still doesn't change the FACT that some guns can fire WITHOUT PULLING THE TRIGGER.

j4l · Sep 8, 2012

Michigander said:
mj, the overly heavy DA pull on a Sig is your safety. When paired with a good holster, traditional decock only Sigs are incredibly safe guns. I've been carrying one for 6 years.

There is nothing wrong with utilizing a thumb safety on a pistol, but make sure that you practice heavily to make sure that you remember to take it off instinctively if you ever have to use it for real.

Also note that if you're using a DA/SA with a thumb safety, such as a FNP, and you're going with the hammer down and safety on, that you'll also need to be good at the DA-SA transition, which takes considerably more practice to be rapidly accurate with than a single mode trigger. Having to undo a retention holster, followed by a thumb safety and THEN the heavy pull to easy pull transition, that is basically stacking the deck against you, especially in a life and death situation when the adrenalin bath hits your brain and fine motor skills are out the window. If you feel strongly about it, you can practice around it and do okay as it sounds like you do now, just know that most people don't do that, and for good reason.

Most people I know who are very serious about self defense techniques, sometimes after years of beating around the bush, end up using a constant action striker fired gun with no safeties and a very good holster. I'm not saying I know that you're a novice because indeed I don't know you, and I'm not saying that you'll end up with the same opinion, but if you are newer to serious defensive shooting, I'm just saying beware of the fact you may end up coming to the same conclusion eventually.

Hope that answers your inquiry, and I hope it doesn't come off as challenging, because you should do what works for you.

Yes, and no. For one, it depends entirely on the pistol (mine DA/SA, for example, is not as dramatic a transition, for me anyway). the skill-level/training of the shooter,etc.
Further, fine-motor skills can be somewhat impaired-but it's an individual thing, and how well an individual operates under duress-not something that can be a definite WILL/WILL-NOT item that covers everyone.
Also, with fine-motor skills..honestly, under duress- with adrenaline going full-bore, you are hardly likely to even notice the difference. The simple function of finger, pulled to rear, is going to happen easily enough..even with a bit more artificial resistance.
Snap-caps are great practice for exactly this sort of thing- getting used to a heavy DA pull. No, you dont get the DA/SA transition, since the slide is not cycled to SA mode, but the DA practice works well for this. Once the muscle-memory is good with DA trigger pulls, SA mode is a lot less of an issue, if any at all.

WalkingWolf · Sep 8, 2012

j4l said:
Yes, and no. For one, it depends entirely on the pistol (mine DA/SA, for example, is not as dramatic a transition, for me anyway). the skill-level/training of the shooter,etc.
Further, fine-motor skills can be somewhat impaired-but it's an individual thing, and how well an individual operates under duress-not something that can be a definite WILL/WILL-NOT item that covers everyone.
Also, with fine-motor skills..honestly, under duress- with adrenaline going full-bore, you are hardly likely to even notice the difference. The simple function of finger, pulled to rear, is going to happen easily enough..even with a bit more artificial resistance.
Snap-caps are great practice for exactly this sort of thing- getting used to a heavy DA pull. No, you dont get the DA/SA transition, since the slide is not cycled to SA mode, but the DA practice works well for this. Once the muscle-memory is good with DA trigger pulls, SA mode is a lot less of an issue, if any at all.

I carried a m-39 for a duty weapon, the transition is not an issue, and least it was not for 100's of police officers using this weapon before the plastic guns came on the scene. I never heard any officer complain, other than wanting the 59 as opposed the lower capacity 39.

Chris 45LC · Sep 8, 2012

Load one, skip one, load four, cock hammer all the way back, pull trigger while holding the hammer and ease the hammer down on the empty chamber. Cock hammer and pull trigger to fire. All guns should be so simple. :lol:

Pocket Pistol Safety.

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