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Thread: Complacency breeds mistakes...

  1. #1
    Regular Member 5jeffro7's Avatar
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    Complacency breeds mistakes...

    To make a long story short:

    Having been OC for quite some time, and not having had an encounter for probably close to 2 years, it happened tonight!

    Because of the heat, I tend to go to Martha Lake Park (164th in Lynnwood) to cool off after work, and have always OC'd. Tonight, I see the deputy walking around the park like he's looking for something/someone specific...damned if I was going to approach him & ask if he was looking for a MWAG

    I returned to the main fishing dock & got my iphone set up to record the video, the only problem is the guy I gave it to knew nothing about much & managed to not even get the audio...but at least I remembered that part

    Deputy walks out on the dock & starts making small talk with some of the people fishing, then, after about a minute, turns to me & states, "I see that you're carrying: I know that it's completely legal & you're within your rights, but so I know who I"m dealing with, can I please see some ID?

    I explained that I had none on me (I'd left it locked in my vehicle, on purpose, as usual). He then asked for my name & date of birth. at this time, I couldn't remember if I had to ID myself or not, and quite frankly, didn't want to start pushing buttons that I wasn't 100% sure of, so relented telling him my name & date of birth.

    The deputy also explained that he had a rookie with him & that he wanted to make sure the rookie understood the legality of open carry so there weren't problems in the future. After drooling over my gun (figuratively, of course), he shook my hand, thanked me & was on his way.

    I'll probably take some heat for actually giving up my information, but I figure if he's going to approach me in the way he did, casually & without alarm, there's no need to start pushing buttons...all in all, a positive experience

  2. #2
    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    Sounds like it went exactly as it should have. Informal, light, and friendly.

    Just because we aren't REQUIRED to show ID doesn't mean we SHOULDN'T. You're a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide and there's no reason to go all Perry Mason on LEOs if they're just coming over to say hi. That rookie will remember this encounter and will likely make any future approaches with a lighter hand because of it.

    I've said it before. My main mission for OC is to educate both the LEOs and the citizens I come in contact with. I'm an ambassador and will try to make every encounter as positive as possible. Its a fact that you catch far more flies with honey than vinegar. A smile and a hand shake goes a long way in setting the tone of any contact.

    Also I WANT to work with LEOs and try to form an informal partnership with them and a little cooperation up front opens the doors for a deeper understanding from both sides of the issue. So I won't slam the door on a potential ally. After a few encounters your name will be known and when an LEO you've built a relationship with hears it on the radio they might break in and vouch for you and open even more inroads.
    “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.” ― Plato

    Plato knew this yet today's antis still don't get it!

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    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    5jeffro7
    You gave in to a consensual search, thats your choice, however Maine Expat is incorrect, how it should have went is "i see your carrying and i know it is legal, have a nice day" the LEO was fishing and you took the bait, when he demanded name and birthdate your response should have been-"im sorry why am i being detained?"

    If he said your not being detained you should have then told him you were terminating the consensual encounter as terry V ohio requires that he have some crime to investigate in order to demand ID. if he is truely training a rookie he was teaching him the wrong lesson and you helped him re-enforce it.
    +thought for the day+
    ++victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none++

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlepnier View Post
    5jeffro7
    You gave in to a consensual search, thats your choice, however Maine Expat is incorrect, how it should have went is "i see your carrying and i know it is legal, have a nice day" the LEO was fishing and you took the bait, when he demanded name and birthdate your response should have been-"im sorry why am i being detained?"

    If he said your not being detained you should have then told him you were terminating the consensual encounter as terry V ohio requires that he have some crime to investigate in order to demand ID. if he is truely training a rookie he was teaching him the wrong lesson and you helped him re-enforce it.
    +10

    If you can't remember the legal requirements of cooperation, then ask the cop; "Am I obligated by law to provide you with that information?" Ask them for the code/statue, whatever. Look it up when you get home, and if the cop lied, bring it up with his superiors. Cops can lie during a criminal investigation, but should not be able to during a "consensual" encounter. (INAL)

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    +10
    ....... then ask the cop; "Am I obligated by law to provide you with that information?".......
    Question with a question...I like that. Good question too!! I must also say that "I have been abused by other LEOs and you can understand my not trusting you officer."
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Just because we aren't REQUIRED to show ID doesn't mean we SHOULDN'T.
    Wrong. Look at your signature line, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." When are you going to contest? Well according to what you just wrote you are only going to comply.

    You're a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide and there's no reason to go all Perry Mason on LEOs if they're just coming over to say hi. That rookie will remember this encounter and will likely make any future approaches with a lighter hand because of it.
    Ah, the 'nothing to hide' line that the police get you to buy in.... I have nothing to hide but I do not run down the street naked. I have nothing to hide but I do not let the IRS reconcile my bank account. I have nothing to hide but I do not let my neighbors search through my underwear/lingerie drawer. Because I have nothing to hide does not hold water with those who believe we are free from government interference. Politely asking "am I being detained?" and "am I free to go?" is not going all Perry Mason... they are rights afforded to me by God and I will assert them politely with respect. Now it is upon the LEO to show me that same respect and answer the question and let me go on my way. The rookie? (who choose this profession) will remember that he can use his badge to infringe upon those rights afforded us by our Creator. What I want the rookie to remember is that he can not approach a law abiding citizen and bully them, detain them, and that the citizen is to be secure in their person and effects.

    I've said it before. My main mission for OC is to educate both the LEOs and the citizens I come in contact with. I'm an ambassador and will try to make every encounter as positive as possible. Its a fact that you catch far more flies with honey than vinegar. A smile and a hand shake goes a long way in setting the tone of any contact.
    This is my mission and has been for the last 3 years. And it can be done by politely and professionally asserting your rights. Your entire premise in the Washington forum is ignorant of the climate and culture of OC in the state of Washington. Many in this state several years ago ended up in handcuffs and illegally detained. It is because of their efforts that OC is accepted now among LE. Many letters and training bulletins have gone out to agencies around the state, lawsuits against the City of Seattle have been fought and won. (Thanks Alan Gottleib and Dave Workman at the SAF).

    Also I WANT to work with LEOs and try to form an informal partnership with them and a little cooperation up front opens the doors for a deeper understanding from both sides of the issue. So I won't slam the door on a potential ally. After a few encounters your name will be known and when an LEO you've built a relationship with hears it on the radio they might break in and vouch for you and open even more inroads.
    If you want to work with them then they must work on our terms, the terms of the Constitution and what is right and not upon the terms of abuse of rights endowed by our Creator. They are not an ally until they follow the Constitution. Our name in Washington is known because a few suffered through false detainment, because a few wrote letters and training bulletins are now part of the official record (not an 'informal partnership'). There are thousands of LEO in Washington and to think that an officer will remember you as an individual is naive and flat out wrong.

    Maine Expat, I hope you spend some time reading the forum. Read the Virginia and Washington forums, read the Main forum, read Wisconsin and Michigan. You then may begin to understand the work and how it was achieved of the OCers that have made incredible strides across America.
    Live Free or Die!

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It sounds like you had a consensual encounter up until the time the cop asked you for ID. Then it turned into a Terry stop. Terry stops are only allowed when there there is RAS that a crime has been committed, is being commited, or is about to be committed. Since the cop already stated that he knew that OC was legal and you provide no other information for him to develop RAS of a crime, you just got gamed into giving up your ID.

    Do not take that as criticism. It is hard for someone who knows the laws and how cops operate to stand up to them and suggerst - ever so politely - that they go pound sand. BTDT and went through the "contempt of cop" trial for my troubles. It's a personal decision regarding how much you are willing to allow them to get away with.

    My gripe, even though I do not live where you do, is that now there is a cop who knows he can, some of the time with some of the people, get away with doing something he is allowed by law to do. When he gets away with it and (as we know will eventually happen) some cop where I live learns about it, the cop local to me will begin to think he too can get away with it. And so on, and so on, and so on.

    As I said, it takes a certain determination and courage to be willing to risk the possibility of contempt of cop" and the personal and financial expense involved in fighting that. But those who are not willing to stand up and tell the cop that they must follow the law need to know what they are doing to the rest of us. I'm hoping that you really were not intending to do that to me and everyone else. I'm hoping that this has opened your eyes or otherwise made you better understand why some of us get upset over what might seem like a "little thing" and that if there is a next time you will defend not only your rights but ours as well.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5jeffro7 View Post
    Deputy walks out on the dock & starts making small talk with some of the people fishing, then, after about a minute, turns to me & states, "I see that you're carrying: I know that it's completely legal & you're within your rights, but so I know who I"m dealing with, can I please see some ID?
    May I see your papers please? <thick german accent>

    ANSWER TO COP: Why is it you think you feel you have the right to talk to me let alone "deal" with me? This consensual conversation is over. Have a nice day and brush up on 4th amendment rights before trying to train your rookie on how to improperly uphold the law.

    *******... <under breath after cop has left)

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It sounds like you had a consensual encounter up until the time the cop asked you for ID. Then it turned into a Terry stop. Terry stops are only allowed when there there is RAS that a crime has been committed, is being commited, or is about to be committed. Since the cop already stated that he knew that OC was legal and you provide no other information for him to develop RAS of a crime, you just got gamed into giving up your ID.

    Do not take that as criticism. It is hard for someone who knows the laws and how cops operate to stand up to them and suggerst - ever so politely - that they go pound sand. BTDT and went through the "contempt of cop" trial for my troubles. It's a personal decision regarding how much you are willing to allow them to get away with.

    My gripe, even though I do not live where you do, is that now there is a cop who knows he can, some of the time with some of the people, get away with doing something he is allowed by law to do. When he gets away with it and (as we know will eventually happen) some cop where I live learns about it, the cop local to me will begin to think he too can get away with it. And so on, and so on, and so on.

    As I said, it takes a certain determination and courage to be willing to risk the possibility of contempt of cop" and the personal and financial expense involved in fighting that. But those who are not willing to stand up and tell the cop that they must follow the law need to know what they are doing to the rest of us. I'm hoping that you really were not intending to do that to me and everyone else. I'm hoping that this has opened your eyes or otherwise made you better understand why some of us get upset over what might seem like a "little thing" and that if there is a next time you will defend not only your rights but ours as well.

    stay safe.
    Well said skid I like to call it enabling. It makes other cops think they can get away with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJeepster View Post
    May I see your papers please? <thick german accent>

    ANSWER TO COP: Why is it you think you feel you have the right to talk to me let alone "deal" with me? This consensual conversation is over. Have a nice day and brush up on 4th amendment rights before trying to train your rookie on how to improperly uphold the law.

    *******... <under breath after cop has left)
    Better yet our stronger State constitution Article 1 section 7, there have been cases the feds have upheld but our state has struck down.

    SECTION 7 INVASION OF PRIVATE AFFAIRS OR HOME PROHIBITED. No person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law.

    SECTION 3 PERSONAL RIGHTS. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

    Put these two together and you have a strong defense against any unwarranted intrusion into your life. And just being a cop does not make what you want authorized under "authority of law".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Where does the DOB come in? you look like you may be under 21 or something? If fishing, under 18? My name is Herman...that is all they need, if you wish to give them anything at all.

    In over 40 years of OC I have never had a problem, but I have thought about it. Maybe a start might be: May I see your state issued police Identification please...I don't know you, how do I know you are a police officer? No, the badge won't do. Then, after the ID is displayed...is there any particular reason Officer XXXX that you wish to have a conversation with me? After he says he knows that OC is legal, but he wants to check, I think I would repeat the fact that he knows OC is legal, so he has no reasonable reason to have any conversation with me at all...dismissed...you may go this conversation is over.

  11. #11
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Ah, the 'nothing to hide' line that the police get you to buy in.... I have nothing to hide but I do not run down the street naked. I have nothing to hide but I do not let the IRS reconcile my bank account. I have nothing to hide but I do not let my neighbors search through my underwear/lingerie drawer. Because I have nothing to hide does not hold water with those who believe we are free from government interference. Politely asking "am I being detained?" and "am I free to go?" is not going all Perry Mason... they are rights afforded to me by God and I will assert them politely with respect. Now it is upon the LEO to show me that same respect and answer the question and let me go on my way. The rookie? (who choose this profession) will remember that he can use his badge to infringe upon those rights afforded us by our Creator. What I want the rookie to remember is that he can not approach a law abiding citizen and bully them, detain them, and that the citizen is to be secure in their person and effects.

    Although these are good points and worthy of discussion and protection, I remind myself and caution others that it isn't about having anything to hide. And letting ourselves fall into that red herring or fallacious argument with cops or others who support cops actions with the "what do you have to hide" argument lowers us to their level and puts the argument on a level it shouldn't be.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Although these are good points and worthy of discussion and protection, I remind myself and caution others that it isn't about having anything to hide. And letting ourselves fall into that red herring or fallacious argument with cops or others who support cops actions with the "what do you have to hide" argument lowers us to their level and puts the argument on a level it shouldn't be.
    Rob, re read my quote. My argument here is only for us as the 'nothing to hide' line by LE is bogus.

    I only advocate am I being detained and am I free to go.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5jeffro7 View Post
    To make a long story short:

    Having been OC for quite some time, and not having had an encounter for probably close to 2 years, it happened tonight!

    Because of the heat, I tend to go to Martha Lake Park (164th in Lynnwood) to cool off after work, and have always OC'd. Tonight, I see the deputy walking around the park like he's looking for something/someone specific...damned if I was going to approach him & ask if he was looking for a MWAG

    I returned to the main fishing dock & got my iphone set up to record the video, the only problem is the guy I gave it to knew nothing about much & managed to not even get the audio...but at least I remembered that part

    Deputy walks out on the dock & starts making small talk with some of the people fishing, then, after about a minute, turns to me & states, "I see that you're carrying: I know that it's completely legal & you're within your rights, but so I know who I"m dealing with, can I please see some ID?

    I explained that I had none on me (I'd left it locked in my vehicle, on purpose, as usual). He then asked for my name & date of birth. at this time, I couldn't remember if I had to ID myself or not, and quite frankly, didn't want to start pushing buttons that I wasn't 100% sure of, so relented telling him my name & date of birth.

    The deputy also explained that he had a rookie with him & that he wanted to make sure the rookie understood the legality of open carry so there weren't problems in the future. After drooling over my gun (figuratively, of course), he shook my hand, thanked me & was on his way.

    I'll probably take some heat for actually giving up my information, but I figure if he's going to approach me in the way he did, casually & without alarm, there's no need to start pushing buttons...all in all, a positive experience
    The usual suspects are giving you enough grief over the consensual search , so I'll just throw my two cents in on your iPhone.

    Check the app store for "CopRecorder." It's free, can be pulled up very quickly, streams audio to a remote site so it can't be "lost," and even has a "stealth" mode. You can also set your camera app to video and leave it there (use a different app for actual photos so you don't get it mixed up), then you pull it up very quick by double clicking the home button & swiping up. Keep the lens covered and you can probably record quite a bit of audio alone without using up alot of space.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Wolfebane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJeepster View Post
    May I see your papers please? <thick german accent>
    Darf ich Ihre Papiere bitte.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Rob, re read my quote. My argument here is only for us as the 'nothing to hide' line by LE is bogus.

    I only advocate am I being detained and am I free to go.
    I know, re read what I wrote. I was emphasizing and adding to your post not to buy into that argument. I don't even bother countering the "What you got to hide" argument by cops or cop apologists.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I know, re read what I wrote. I was emphasizing and adding to your post not to buy into that argument. I don't even bother countering the "What you got to hide" argument by cops or cop apologists.
    Got it, I just have not read much on taking apart the 'nothing to hide' argument so I have been working on a mini essay to hopefully open the eyes of some. I have had many gun owners, regular people who will recite this because they have heard it since they were young. They are just brainwashed over the years, so providing some commentary to get them to think about it from a different point of view has been enlightening for them.
    Live Free or Die!

  17. #17
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Cop: C'mon, if you ain't done nothing wrong what have you got to hide?
    Me: ....uh, I don't know.....what are you fishing for?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  18. #18
    Regular Member Contrarian's Avatar
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    Exclamation Papiere !

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfebane View Post
    Darf ich Ihre Papiere bitte.
    Drop the ''bitte''...they are not that polite.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    No matter how glib and brilliant you think your comment is, don't engage any LEO in ANY conversation. Here is one of the best videos available regarding police interactions you can view. Recommended for anyone who OCs.

  20. #20
    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajetpilot View Post
    No matter how glib and brilliant you think your comment is, don't engage any LEO in ANY conversation. Here is one of the best videos available regarding police interactions you can view. Recommended for anyone who OCs.
    That video is informative, but I find it much to wordy. I believe this is the best way to handle a police encounter.

    "...our media are palace eunuchs gazing avidly at the harem of power and stroking their impotent pens in time to the rape of our liberties."
    -Sarah Hoyt

    "America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
    -Claire Wolfe

  21. #21
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Excellent!

  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    CZ 75 P-01 in thigh holster with retention strap
    Likely would have not been a big deal if it were a belt rig.....meh.....to each their own.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    How, or what someone chooses to carry is not the point. Just like the length of someones hair, the clothes they are wearing, ethnicity, etc. do not give the government any reason to violate rights. Carry what you want, how you want, while wearing whatever you want, and go about your normal daily routine secure in the belief that you are legally protected from government intrusion.

  24. #24
    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    This is part 1 of 2 of an excellent lecture given by a defense lawyer (part 1) and a police officer (part 2) of why you never talk to the police:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

    These have been posted before, but its been a couple of months...

    Should these be on a sticky or does this come across as too much of an 'anti police' stance?
    "...our media are palace eunuchs gazing avidly at the harem of power and stroking their impotent pens in time to the rape of our liberties."
    -Sarah Hoyt

    "America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
    -Claire Wolfe

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Got it, I just have not read much on taking apart the 'nothing to hide' argument so I have been working on a mini essay to hopefully open the eyes of some. I have had many gun owners, regular people who will recite this because they have heard it since they were young. They are just brainwashed over the years, so providing some commentary to get them to think about it from a different point of view has been enlightening for them.
    Ditto. I have many great conversations, some with LEO, on it not being a "what you got hide" issue. To see the light go off in their eyes when they get that point is awesome. Of course some don't just want to admit that that isn't the issue.


    The fourth amendment is based on a long history in English Law, (our country was founded upon English Common Law). Boyd states some principles I like, and they referred a case prior to our forming of our confederacy judged by Lord Camden..Entick v. Carrington

    Boyd v. U.S. (1886)

    The principles laid down [by Lord Camden] affect the very essence of constitutional liberty and security. They reach further than the concrete form of the case then before the court, with its adventitious circumstances; they apply to all invasions on the part of the government and its employees of the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life. It is not the breaking of his doors, and the rummaging of his drawers, that constitutes the essence of the offense; but it is the invasion of his indefeasible right of personal security, personal liberty, and private property, where that right has never been forfeited by his conviction of some public offense; it is the invasion of this sacred right which underlies and constitutes the essence of Lord Camden's judgment. Breaking into a house and opening boxes and drawers are circumstances of aggravation; but any forcible and compulsory extortion of a man's own testimony, or of his private papers to be used as evidence to convict him of a crime, or to forfeit his goods, is within the condemnation of that judgment. In this regard the fourth and fifth amendments run almost into each other. Can we doubt that when the fourth and fifth amendments to the constitution of the United States were penned and adopted, the language of Lord Camden was relied on as expressing the true doctrine on the subject of searches and seizures, and as furnishing the true criteria of the reasonable and unreasonable character of such seizures?... The struggles against arbitrary power in which they had been engaged for more than 20 years, would have been too deeply engraved in their memories to allow them to approve of such insidious disguises of the old grievance which they had so deeply abhorred
    (Of course the highlights are mine I especially like the underlined one)


    There are some good essays on the 4th at Lewrockwell.com and Misesdaily.org.

    It's why I also don't think the creation of a "Terry stop" is constitutional creating RAS, it was a watering down of our 4th and 5th amendments. Same with Hibbel.

    I wonder if Jeff had politely refused to ID himself and stand up for the unwarranted intrusion into his private activities and papers, if the encounter would have taken a different turn, but because he didn't stand up for his and our rights we won't know. In my experience many cops just don't like being told no, although I have had a few, (State trooper, county deputy) politely admit that was my right and it was the end of the encounter.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 07-14-2012 at 11:34 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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