Complacency breeds mistakes...

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Excellent!

CZ 75 P-01 in thigh holster with retention strap

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Likely would have not been a big deal if it were a belt rig.....meh.....to each their own.

How, or what someone chooses to carry is not the point. Just like the length of someones hair, the clothes they are wearing, ethnicity, etc. do not give the government any reason to violate rights. Carry what you want, how you want, while wearing whatever you want, and go about your normal daily routine secure in the belief that you are legally protected from government intrusion.

This is part 1 of 2 of an excellent lecture given by a defense lawyer (part 1) and a police officer (part 2) of why you never talk to the police:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

These have been posted before, but its been a couple of months...

Should these be on a sticky or does this come across as too much of an 'anti police' stance?

gogodawgs said:

Got it, I just have not read much on taking apart the 'nothing to hide' argument so I have been working on a mini essay to hopefully open the eyes of some. I have had many gun owners, regular people who will recite this because they have heard it since they were young. They are just brainwashed over the years, so providing some commentary to get them to think about it from a different point of view has been enlightening for them.

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Ditto. I have many great conversations, some with LEO, on it not being a "what you got hide" issue. To see the light go off in their eyes when they get that point is awesome. Of course some don't just want to admit that that isn't the issue.


The fourth amendment is based on a long history in English Law, (our country was founded upon English Common Law). Boyd states some principles I like, and they referred a case prior to our forming of our confederacy judged by Lord Camden..Entick v. Carrington

Boyd v. U.S. (1886)

The principles laid down [by Lord Camden] affect the very essence of constitutional liberty and security. They reach further than the concrete form of the case then before the court, with its adventitious circumstances; they apply to all invasions on the part of the government and its employees of the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life. It is not the breaking of his doors, and the rummaging of his drawers, that constitutes the essence of the offense; but it is the invasion of his indefeasible right of personal security, personal liberty, and private property, where that right has never been forfeited by his conviction of some public offense; it is the invasion of this sacred right which underlies and constitutes the essence of Lord Camden's judgment. Breaking into a house and opening boxes and drawers are circumstances of aggravation; but any forcible and compulsory extortion of a man's own testimony, or of his private papers to be used as evidence to convict him of a crime, or to forfeit his goods, is within the condemnation of that judgment. In this regard the fourth and fifth amendments run almost into each other. Can we doubt that when the fourth and fifth amendments to the constitution of the United States were penned and adopted, the language of Lord Camden was relied on as expressing the true doctrine on the subject of searches and seizures, and as furnishing the true criteria of the reasonable and unreasonable character of such seizures?... The struggles against arbitrary power in which they had been engaged for more than 20 years, would have been too deeply engraved in their memories to allow them to approve of such insidious disguises of the old grievance which they had so deeply abhorred

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(Of course the highlights are mine I especially like the underlined one)


There are some good essays on the 4th at Lewrockwell.com and Misesdaily.org.

It's why I also don't think the creation of a "Terry stop" is constitutional creating RAS, it was a watering down of our 4th and 5th amendments. Same with Hibbel.

I wonder if Jeff had politely refused to ID himself and stand up for the unwarranted intrusion into his private activities and papers, if the encounter would have taken a different turn, but because he didn't stand up for his and our rights we won't know. In my experience many cops just don't like being told no, although I have had a few, (State trooper, county deputy) politely admit that was my right and it was the end of the encounter.

Wow..I have a lot to learn. Moving to Spokane in a couple months....my whole mentality will have to change.

I don't mind giving up my I'd or information. I don't mind being cooperative at all. If I am oc and a Leo wants to talk to me and ask for I'd....I just wish to oblige. Remember I'm from Texas,..don't care for the confrontation, or want to cause a stink. Less is more, IMO. But apparently this is a disservice to the Washington state community....I have a lot to learn.


Wow....and try and record the encounter? Is it unusual to carry openly in Spokane? what percentage actually oc's?

Remember...I'm learning.

Thank you.

Superduty said:

Wow..I have a lot to learn. Moving to Spokane in a couple months....my whole mentality will have to change.

I don't mind giving up my I'd or information. I don't mind being cooperative at all. If I am oc and a Leo wants to talk to me and ask for I'd....I just wish to oblige. Remember I'm from Texas,..don't care for the confrontation, or want to cause a stink. Less is more, IMO. But apparently this is a disservice to the Washington state community....I have a lot to learn.


Wow....and try and record the encounter? Is it unusual to carry openly in Spokane? what percentage actually oc's?

Remember...I'm learning.

Thank you.

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Standing up for your rights that millions of died for over the last seven hundred years or so is not a bad thing and something that should be done. To me confrontational is a very subjective word and I feel that being ready to confront any attacks on our liberty or freedom is not a bad thing.

I would hope you aren't happy to oblige because then that officer may be more aggressive when encounters me after you feeling I should act like you.

Record any interaction you have with any public officials but especially cops. It's for your protection.

what do you think?

5jeffro7 said:

I returned to the main fishing dock & got my iphone set up to record the video, the only problem is the guy I gave it to knew nothing about much & managed to not even get the audio...but at least I remembered that part

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Superduty said:

Wow....and try and record the encounter?

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As an answer to the situations described above, I have been thinking about setting up a phone line (technical details below) to where I(or anyone else) can call it and it'll immediately start recording my conversation.

There have been several cases over the years where LEO or others have taken someone's phone and deleted the recording taken in these types of situations but if the audio was stored on a remote voicemail box then they'd have to get a subpoena to retrieve that recording. Some phones also have a limit as to how long they can record audio/video and some phones do not have the ability to record at all. Simply dialling a number (preferably on speed-dial) and keeping the phone within audible range would be far easier then trying to fire up an app to record and in the case of video, keeping the camera pointed in the right direction etc...

The reason I bring it up is because it would be a shame to go through the work (which isn't hard or expensive) to set something up for just my personal use. Would anyone else be interested in having a 'hot-line' they could call if there were ever a situation that warranted having at least the audio documented? I've been watching the OC reports and the vast majority do not have any troubles where such a service would be needed but for those that will run into trouble, having something like this available could be a huge help.

For those that might bring up the legality of recording like this; it does not break any wiretapping laws as the "party"(Asterisk PBX) on the other end will (quickly) state that the call is being recorded before the beep. That complies with wiretapping laws in WA and Fed.
WA: 9.73.030 Fed: Fed-Overview

Now for the technical aspect of it:
Setup the open source application Asterisk which acts like a PBX on one of my colocated servers (I have several located all over the globe)
Setup SIP Trunking line that allows Asterisk to communicate with the public telephone network.
Select a phone number that is easy to remember or is some sort of word or acronym.
And last but not least, figure out some sort of access or distribution of voice mail messages. This is more in line of how people would like to receive the messages that arrive in the voicemail box. They could be sent via email, text message or several other ways as .mp3 files.

Maine Expat said:

Sounds like it went exactly as it should have. Informal, light, and friendly.

Just because we aren't REQUIRED to show ID doesn't mean we SHOULDN'T. You're a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide and there's no reason to go all Perry Mason on LEOs if they're just coming over to say hi. That rookie will remember this encounter and will likely make any future approaches with a lighter hand because of it.

I've said it before. My main mission for OC is to educate both the LEOs and the citizens I come in contact with. I'm an ambassador and will try to make every encounter as positive as possible. Its a fact that you catch far more flies with honey than vinegar. A smile and a hand shake goes a long way in setting the tone of any contact.

Also I WANT to work with LEOs and try to form an informal partnership with them and a little cooperation up front opens the doors for a deeper understanding from both sides of the issue. So I won't slam the door on a potential ally. After a few encounters your name will be known and when an LEO you've built a relationship with hears it on the radio they might break in and vouch for you and open even more inroads.

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Superduty said:

Wow..I have a lot to learn. Moving to Spokane in a couple months....my whole mentality will have to change.

I don't mind giving up my I'd or information. I don't mind being cooperative at all. If I am oc and a Leo wants to talk to me and ask for I'd....I just wish to oblige. Remember I'm from Texas,..don't care for the confrontation, or want to cause a stink. Less is more, IMO. But apparently this is a disservice to the Washington state community....I have a lot to learn.


Wow....and try and record the encounter? Is it unusual to carry openly in Spokane? what percentage actually oc's?

Remember...I'm learning.

Thank you.

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"They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

amzbrady said:

"They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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And I will ad that all liberty is essential and all safety is temporary.

jolly__roger said:

As an answer to the situations described above, I have been thinking about setting up a phone line (technical details below) to where I(or anyone else) can call it and it'll immediately start recording my conversation.

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I like QIK Video myself. I've got it on my iPhone, but it is available for other platforms as well.

Ajetpilot said:

I like QIK Video myself. I've got it on my iPhone, but it is available for other platforms as well.

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Interesting but I see that QIK was acquired by Skype and Skype was acquired by Microsoft so I'm going to look for an alternative. And an alternative I can host on my own. I'm a bit of a security/privacy nut so I tend to not trust many 3rd party services like that and especially if it's now under MS control.

Porcupine411 or something like that is as I recall available for setup anywhere. I think it was like $30-40\mo. And seems like it would be pretty easy.

What I believe happened in the Officer to Rookie conversation was something along the lines of hey Rookie you have to be careful dealing with these OC guys so handle it like I did. Ask nice and the not so knowledgeable one's will give you what you ask and we might catch something good in our fishing expedition. But the smarter ones won't answer because they know we have limits.

I would have actually taught the Rookie something by the Lack of conversation. But that's just me. I have gained my knowledge and experience in the trenches so to speak. We are all able to handle the situation the way we see fit.

Superduty said:

Wow..I have a lot to learn. Moving to Spokane in a couple months....my whole mentality will have to change.

I don't mind giving up my I'd or information. I don't mind being cooperative at all. If I am oc and a Leo wants to talk to me and ask for I'd....I just wish to oblige. Remember I'm from Texas,..don't care for the confrontation, or want to cause a stink. Less is more, IMO. But apparently this is a disservice to the Washington state community....I have a lot to learn.


Wow....and try and record the encounter? Is it unusual to carry openly in Spokane? what percentage actually oc's?

Remember...I'm learning.

Thank you.

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Don't feed the bears.
Smokeys and their four legged counterparts have the same mentality to being offered food or information, they come expect it.

Haven't seen the cops knokin' over garbage cans yet though.....................................

I posted some extended thoughts on this issue; since it was largely inspired by this thread, it's probably appropriate to link here: Open Carry, Close Mouth. Please feel free to offer comment; I'm trying to better understand all of the principles involved.

but so I know who I"m dealing with, can I please see some ID?

I explained that I had none on me (I'd left it locked in my vehicle, on purpose, as usual). He then asked for my name & date of birth.

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"You may call me SIR; birth-date not important"!

It's amazing to me how many times an OCer is contacted by a LEO and the conversation starts with: "I know you're legally carrying, but could I see some ID?"

Venya said:

I posted some extended thoughts on this issue; since it was largely inspired by this thread, it's probably appropriate to link here: Open Carry, Close Mouth. Please feel free to offer comment; I'm trying to better understand all of the principles involved.

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Nicely written piece. I too have many LE family and friends and have discussed this with them. There is a retired former federal LE and judge on this forum (triggerDr) and I can tell you to a 'T' that the consensus is do not talk to the police. There is no reason to give them your identity, zero. There is no advantage other than the proverbial 'being nice'.

Either LE is going to arrest you or not. Saying much of anything will only give them more information to be used against you. (It will nearly never by exculpatory information 1%<). Only after being arrested and taken to the clink, will you need to give ID to be released. I would suggest that you have an attorney give them that information.

I agree completely with Nick, however, a slight correction. Yes, I was a judge, but NOT a federal judge. Lower court, Montana state.

Venya said:

I posted some extended thoughts on this issue; since it was largely inspired by this thread, it's probably appropriate to link here: Open Carry, Close Mouth. Please feel free to offer comment; I'm trying to better understand all of the principles involved.

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Since you are obviously quite new to this forum (Welcome to OCDO!), I heartily encourage you to watch this video explaining clearly why you should never talk to the police, in case you have never seen it. Even the LEO who speaks following the law professor's presentation admits that everything the professor says is true.