Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Combs Trial Demonstrates Need To Use Recording Devices

  1. #1
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    Combs Trial Demonstrates Need To Use Recording Devices

    The trial of Sean Combs demonstrated that wearing recording devices, and using them, may make a big difference in a case.

    In Sean's case, he did not wear a recorder. The prosecutor and the police witnesses tried to sway the jury by saying Sean was "loud" and "boisterous". Sean did not have audio or video to rebut that. The only rebuttal was defense witness testimony.

    During closing arguments, the prosecutor really tried hard to hammer on Sean being "loud" and "boisterous", possibly to sway the jury in finding him guilty of at least disturbing the peace.

    If Sean had at least his own audio recording of the encounter, that would have been 100% rebuttal to one of the key points the prosecutor was trying to use.

    The Combs case is proof, yet again, that recording devices will never be a tool that you can presume you don't need.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  2. #2
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    831
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    The trial of Sean Combs demonstrated that wearing recording devices, and using them, may make a big difference in a case.

    In Sean's case, he did not wear a recorder. The prosecutor and the police witnesses tried to sway the jury by saying Sean was "loud" and "boisterous". Sean did not have audio or video to rebut that. The only rebuttal was defense witness testimony.

    During closing arguments, the prosecutor really tried hard to hammer on Sean being "loud" and "boisterous", possibly to sway the jury in finding him guilty of at least disturbing the peace.

    If Sean had at least his own audio recording of the encounter, that would have been 100% rebuttal to one of the key points the prosecutor was trying to use.

    The Combs case is proof, yet again, that recording devices will never be a tool that you can presume you don't need.


    + 1,000,000... regardless of OC or CC.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  3. #3
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Shyster says the B'ham police didn't have a recording of the stop to turn over for exculpatory evidence...how convenient.

  4. #4
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Shyster says the B'ham police didn't have a recording of the stop to turn over for exculpatory evidence...how convenient.
    I know, right? Further proof that you need to provide your own capability to record . . . and use it!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  5. #5
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Monroe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,196
    maybe have some way to back up your recording too. if they do arrest you, your recordings could be "lost" or accidentally deleted" while you are in custody.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  6. #6
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Erie, MI
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    maybe have some way to back up your recording too. if they do arrest you, your recordings could be "lost" or accidentally deleted" while you are in custody.
    Some of the newer smartphones have apps available that stream directly to an online storage. At least I think that is what I read. Getting one at the end of the month so will be able to better research it then.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Some of the newer smartphones have apps available that stream directly to an online storage. At least I think that is what I read. Getting one at the end of the month so will be able to better research it then.
    Porcupine 411 and speaker phone is something everyone should be ready to deploy instantly. Definitely not as good as video, but whatever you can get said while the phone is connected won't be getting erased.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  8. #8
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    3,448
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Some of the newer smartphones have apps available that stream directly to an online storage. At least I think that is what I read. Getting one at the end of the month so will be able to better research it then.
    Qik

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    I have been happy I was running one a couple times.

  10. #10
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,251
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    The trial of Sean Combs demonstrated that wearing recording devices, and using them, may make a big difference in a case.

    In Sean's case, he did not wear a recorder. The prosecutor and the police witnesses tried to sway the jury by saying Sean was "loud" and "boisterous". Sean did not have audio or video to rebut that. The only rebuttal was defense witness testimony.

    During closing arguments, the prosecutor really tried hard to hammer on Sean being "loud" and "boisterous", possibly to sway the jury in finding him guilty of at least disturbing the peace.

    If Sean had at least his own audio recording of the encounter, that would have been 100% rebuttal to one of the key points the prosecutor was trying to use.

    The Combs case is proof, yet again, that recording devices will never be a tool that you can presume you don't need.
    Are You saying police lie to cover their arse's(feign amazement)?If so,I can only say they lied in 3 instances since 06' in my case!Thats 3 for 3 in my contacts with Warren Leo's!I would call that a "pattern"! I believe audio-video is a must at this time!It's become that bad! It SHOULD NOT BE THAT WAY but IT IS!! CARRY ON!
    Last edited by hamaneggs; 07-12-2012 at 06:28 PM.
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    I caught them lying too. Those recorders are great.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Lightbulb Voice recorder = good but ...

    Per his lawyer "video is even better".

    Or to put it another way video is priceless because it not only captures the verbal commands etc of officers it captures your reactions(or no actions at all). Details which can be, and are often shall we say are "fudged" in police reports. Ask any good lawyer - Omissions or other little tricks can get you locked up for something you did not do, as was the objective here, Had there been a video record, oh my how different things would have been.

    Imagine this ... you are OCing in a public place somewhere minding your own business. A foaming at the mouth anti walks by and once out of your sight dials 911. He/She/It says to the dispatcher "some Ahole just pulled/waived a gun at me!" Want to bet how useful your voice recorder is going to be?

    Video of the nut stomping past you while you are harmlessly looking at flowers in the garden section of Lowe's PRICELESS! Think about it people, it is your word against their's. What if there were no words spoken? ,,,,,,,
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 07-12-2012 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Clarify importance video can play in freedom
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  13. #13
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,251

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Per his lawyer "video is even better".

    Or to put it another way video is priceless because it not only captures the verbal commands etc of officers it captures your reactions(or no actions at all). Something which is often shall we say are "fudged" in police reports.

    Imagine this ... you are OCing in a public place somewhere minding your own business. A foaming at the mouth anti walks by and once out of your sight dials 911. He/She/It says to the dispatcher "some Ahole just pulled/waived a gun at me!" Want to bet how useful your voice recorder is going to be?

    Video of the nut strolling past you while you are harmlessly looking at flowers for your wife PRICELESS! Think about it people it is your word against their's. What if there were no words spoken? ,,,,,,
    Your word against theirs and who the judge believes!Thus explains the Stainless deal according to his lawyers explaination!Simple! Audio-video was needed in the Stainless case,Right Stainless? I Get It,so should everyone!CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,756
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Per his lawyer "video is even better".

    Or to put it another way video is priceless because it not only captures the verbal commands etc of officers it captures your reactions(or no actions at all). Something which is often shall we say are "fudged" in police reports.

    Imagine this ... you are OCing in a public place somewhere minding your own business. A foaming at the mouth anti walks by and once out of your sight dials 911. He/She/It says to the dispatcher "some Ahole just pulled/waived a gun at me!" Want to bet how useful your voice recorder is going to be?

    Video of the nut strolling past you while you are harmlessly looking at flowers for your wife PRICELESS! Think about it people it is your word against their's. What if there were no words spoken? ,,,,,,
    Well said! Video+Audio always! Preferably multiple units... one to capture the incident and one to capture the destruction of the first one.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 07-12-2012 at 09:35 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Well said! Video+Audio always! Preferably multiple units... one to capture the incident and one to capture the destruction of the first one.

    Could not have said it better friend! Well done!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047
    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    Your word against theirs and who the judge believes!Thus explains the Stainless deal according to his lawyers explaination!Simple! Audio-video was needed in the Stainless case,Right Stainless? I Get It,so should everyone!CARRY ON!
    Yes sadly,

    Had stainless had better equipment the first time around he would have walked away untarnished, The second time around it sure would of helped. The third time it ... Never mind! Not meant to be a dig at stainless - just a glaring example of how video can really help.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    Your word against theirs and who the judge believes!Thus explains the Stainless deal according to his lawyers explaination!Simple! Audio-video was needed in the Stainless case,Right Stainless? I Get It,so should everyone!CARRY ON!

    Yes. On all counts.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    It comes down to money, if I had the money, I would use video. I got a 40$ spy pen for a birthday gift, but it lasted 2 weeks or 3, and just quit.

  19. #19
    Regular Member ken243's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Clio, MI
    Posts
    141
    This is one of mine. Video and audio. Works great. I had it with me at the first Birmingham gathering.


    http://www.amazon.com/Veho-VCC-003-M.../dp/B0029631VI
    Person in Home Depot: "Do you really think you need that?"
    Me: "I hope not. But then again, I didn't need my seatbelt on the way here either."

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Exclamation Pay for protection now or lose it and pay more later...

    Quote Originally Posted by ken243 View Post
    This is one of mine. Video and audio. Works great. I had it with me at the first Birmingham gathering.


    http://www.amazon.com/Veho-VCC-003-M.../dp/B0029631VI
    Good choice. Only issue is battery life on some of the smaller units. Also many police carry these too, so they know what they are. In my opinion - the best bet is a mixture of devices, including a cheap "bait" camera (Jazz flip $20) stealth video devices ($50 - $200). Voice recorder $30 - $100. Is it a pain to carry the extra gear? Not when one thinks about just how easy it is to be falsely charged and lose your PRICELESS freedom.

    Stainless got brought up and he is a living breathing example of everything that can go wrong while OCing. He has a valid point about cost, but he now also carries a pistol that costs nearly a $1,000? It comes down to priorities. If Stainless had opted to gear up with some of the more expensive choices above his extra cost would have been approximately $320 - sounds like a lot until you consider he has had to pay much more than that in lawyer fees, fines, probation costs etc....

    In my honest opinion it boils down to pay a little extra now or pay a lot later...

    Stainless - this is in no way a bash against you, just a cautionary tale to others of what can and does happen out there in the real world to OCers sometimes.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    I know what you meant, no offense taken.

    I intend to get a camera, but can't right now.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    This brings up a good point. There is a potential issue when one OC's that a person could easily call the police and inform them that someone "brandished" the firearm... ie waved it around, threatening them. There was local GR case a few years ago when a CCer was stopped by the police while driving a car who was informed that another driver called the police saying he threatened him with a handgun. The officer asked to see the firearm, and the CCer showed them a stainless revolver. The person was immediately released because the caller had described the pistol as a black semi-auto. In fact, I have a good friend who refuses to OC for this very reason. Has this ever really happened, NO. Could it CONCEIVABLY happen, most certainly. Therefore, I would suggest that, if you have a video recorder, you take a short video of how you are dressed and that you make sure that you include a shot of your pistol in a segment of the video taken before you head out.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Erie, MI
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    This brings up a good point. There is a potential issue when one OC's that a person could easily call the police and inform them that someone "brandished" the firearm... ie waved it around, threatening them. There was local GR case a few years ago when a CCer was stopped by the police while driving a car who was informed that another driver called the police saying he threatened him with a handgun. The officer asked to see the firearm, and the CCer showed them a stainless revolver. The person was immediately released because the caller had described the pistol as a black semi-auto. In fact, I have a good friend who refuses to OC for this very reason. Has this ever really happened, NO. Could it CONCEIVABLY happen, most certainly. Therefore, I would suggest that, if you have a video recorder, you take a short video of how you are dressed and that you make sure that you include a shot of your pistol in a segment of the video taken before you head out.
    I agree but I also think it is very sad that we have to go to such lengths to exercise a right. It is almost impossible to get a small video device that can record all day long and every encounter you may have. Lets use the above example (post #12 by Glock9mmOldStyle) of an anti calling the police accusing you of "brandishing your weapon and threatening them". Unless you are recording continually you would likely never get that on video. I use a good digital voice recorder set to voice activation but it likely would not help much in that situation as brandishing is a visual, not verbal, threat. Video would be nice also, but again as was stated, there is a battery life issue not to mention storage space. I looked at that Qik program Q talked about, may check it out when I get a smart phone at the end of the month.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 07-13-2012 at 03:40 PM.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,047

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    ...I also think it is very sad that we have to go to such lengths to exercise a right.
    Quoted for truth. These are sad times we live in my fellow Americans.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,756
    There are advantages and disadvantages to every method of recording... apps that upload to the 'net stop uploading once the cell phone meets an "accident" and then what will record what happens after that?

    Covert recorders are a hassle because they have a limited battery capacity that requires multiple units to capture many hours of OC time... and they can be taken to meet an "accident".

    I don't know what is best... all I know is I carry more covert recorders (in different configurations) than I do guns. And I save the recordings of everyday activities for at least a couple of years.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 07-13-2012 at 06:10 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •