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Thread: Personal Attacks

  1. #1
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Personal Attacks

    I have been hesitant to post my thoughts as I just hoped that such behavior would eventually subside. However, especially within the past few months, I have seen an increased tendency to not only criticize posters for the content of their posts, but to also cross the line to making personal attacks... and to continually make these attacks month after month, post after post.
    I am somewhat dismayed that some here continue to browbeat Stainless, or anyone else. Although I can understand the wish to not have certain comments be indicative of the group as a whole, making comments beyond a few instructive reponses to things posted here does this group a huge disservice.

    In the hope to put criticism of Stainless to rest, let me provide the following:

    In regards to the Stainless’ "CC on school property" charge, the reason that he lost is that he did not appear to be as believable as the accuser. Since it was a civil infraction, a violation of the law less serious than a misdemeanor which usually does not attach certain individual rights, Stainless was easily found responsible for violating the law. As one can plainly see in the excerpt below, it is pretty easy to find one responsible for a Civil Infraction. Unless you have serious substantiation backing up your claims of innocence, the most likely outcome is that you are found guilty of violating the law.

    In considering the evidence presented by both parties at an informal civil infraction
    hearing, the magistrate should render a decision that is supported by a preponderance
    of the evidence. (MCL 600.8719[4], MCL 600.8821[5]) When the evidence shows
    that a fact is more likely than not consistent with a party's description of it, that fact
    is said to be established by a preponderance of the evidence. (Black's Law
    Dictionary [5th Edition, 1979]) A preponderance of the evidence is sometimes
    expressed as a 51 percent showing that the evidence is consistent with a party's
    version of the facts.
    The burden of proof by preponderance of the evidence in civil infraction cases is
    much different than the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal cases.
    The prosecution bears a much heavier burden of proof in criminal cases than does
    the plaintiff in civil infraction cases. To establish a fact beyond a reasonable doubt,
    the trier of fact must be entirely convinced of it, to a moral certainty. (Black's Law
    Dictionary [5th Edition, 1979])
    If the magistrate determines by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant is
    responsible for the infraction, the magistrate shall enter an order against the
    defendant as provided in MCL 600.8727 or MCL 600.8827. Otherwise a judgment
    shall be entered in favor of the defendant. (MCL 600.8719[4], MCL 600.8819[4])
    -Page 37 of the State Court Handbook found here: http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/reso...is/mcllist.pdf

    Regarding the unfortunate events that precluded the revocation of his CPL, I really feel that some here wish to just keep bringing up something that doesn’t need to be rehashed by arm-chair quarterbacks. Yes, on the face of it, the incident was predicated upon poor choices made by Stainless. However, I have made some poor choices in my life and I'm sure that many here could also say the same. Do we need to call everyone out for those choices on a public forum… over and over again?

    What bothers me most about the issue is that the Sate of Michigan has an extremely large number of disqualifying violations of the law that can keep one from either getting a CPL or maintaining one that they have already received: Call an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend to get some of your things back and threaten to come over there and get you things, no CPL for 3 years (Malicious use of telephones, MCL 750.540e). Take some items inadvertently home from work (Embezzlement, MCL 750.174). Your 1st grade child, who lives with your ex-spouse takes a firearm to school because the mother's boyfriend just leaves his firearms around the house, loss of CPL for 8 years (Parent of a minor who possessed a firearm in a weapon-free school zone, MCL 750.235a); keep your prescription medication in a Pill-A-Day container instead of the original prescription bottle, loss of CPL for 3 years (Controlled substances, MCL 333.7401 to 333.7461) There was even one case that I know of second-hand that the CPL was revoked, not for any one specific conviction, but rather that the person's background convinced the sheriff that the person was a danger to themselves or others. Although I believe that the person could successfully fight the sheriff's opinion because there really is no probable cause for the sheriff to believe that the person is a danger, rather the person has been a vocal critic of the sheriff and his cronies, the person doesn't have enough money to successfully take the sheriff to court.
    All of these charges, although seemingly egregious, have been successfully used to keep otherwise decent individuals from being able to get a license which allows them ALMOST unfettered carry. Most states have a very small list of disqualifying convictions that prohibit someone from getting a license to carry a concealed firearm.

    In regards to a statement made about Stainless concerning the get-together in Birmingham, Stainless was advised by many members here not to attend, to "lay low" and stay out of the spotlight. Stainless wisely heeded the advice. But, much to my surprise, one of these same individuals then brought up Stainless' absence from the Birmingham event as some sort of "proof" that Stainless was not really supportive of Sean and had no right to assert an opinion. Let a person's opinions/posts be judged on the content of what they post, not based upon personal prejudices.

    In regards to posts claiming that members here are racist, communist, Nazis, FUDS, etc...

    As OC becomes more popular, I’m sure that there will be an increasing number of people who will do or say things that you may feel are not representative of your thoughts and therefore not representative of this group. If someone here does not care to be associated with anyone else, so be it. If you go to an event and that person is there, don't talk to the person. Agree to disagree. One or two comments on the forum that serves to instruct rather than browbeat a person is fine. But, to continually interject the disdain into post after post not only makes THE POSTER appear to be a little “off”, it communicates this to the greater community. If you wish to criticize someone beyond a few instructive comments, either keep your opinion to yourself or send the person with whom you have an issue a PM. Why is there an incessant need to denigrate in a public forum?
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-13-2012 at 03:36 PM.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    well said. i've often referred to the fact that most of us could lose our CPL if we were just followed long enough by the police. a lot of people say, "well i would never commit a felony". the sad truth is you probably have. repeatedly.

    3 felonies a day:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...830760842.html

    illegal everything:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBiJB8YuDBQ
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  3. #3
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I have made some poor choices in my life and I'm sure that many here could also say the same.
    I see you've met my first wife.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Well said.



    I see you've met my first wife.
    I have one if those too. lol

  5. #5
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I have one if those too. lol
    Ditto unfortunately.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  6. #6
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Hey DrTodd... you're a jerk... screw you, your mother, AND the horse you rode in on you miserable son of a gun...


    I've voiced my opinion on the stainless saga already... Some of the slams are unnecessary, but personal responsibility and all... dude made his bed...
    Last edited by HKcarrier; 07-13-2012 at 02:53 PM.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Hey DrTodd... you're a jerk... screw you, your mother, AND the horse you rode in on you miserable son of a gun...
    It was only a matter of time...





    Edit to note - I am sure that HK was kidding. Dr Todd in my opinion is one of our hardcore OC - civil rights activists. We could use many more like him. Hell - anyone who drives half way across the state to stand in the heat next to a wronged OCer, all under the threat of possible arrest, has to be all right.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 07-13-2012 at 03:23 PM. Reason: Props to the Dr.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  8. #8
    Regular Member StingMP9's Avatar
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    Thanks Todd, you've always been helpful to anyone looking for the correct wording and opinion of what we can do as our RKBA. Thanks for requesting the negativity to stop. That for the ANTIS to feed and latch onto.
    I also feel Stainless has done very much for the overall public good even though he has had his personal situations that have taken negative directions and removed his CPL couple times. Despite what his actions have done for his own circumstances he is among the first to welcome new persons to the site and provide helpful knowledge, like what Not to do.
    These attacks against our friends have always foolish Philistine behavior counter to our goal to unfettered RKBA. I think it is attacks like this that removed other friendly but attacked contributors such as Kimberguy (whom I haven't seen mention of in just over 2 years)...he had a lot of knowledge and police interaction although a controversial relationship with many users here (probably due to his passion for LGOC). I think some users who are organization members or officers here think it is there duty to say too much on OCDO rather than keep it on their own site where they own that content. I usually see a lot of negative attacks by such members. This is why I don't contribute here even though its free and open and definitely why I won't join forces with such a members organization.

    Its like hearing why some guy won't join your church because they who observe from the outside see how you really act outside your church. We all need to grow up and respect each other as though we are talking face to face.
    "Reason can never be popular. Passions and feelings can become popular, but reason will always remain the sole property of a few eminent individuals."
    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

  9. #9
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Dear DrTodd,

    I feel your post browbeats others into not talking about certain subjects, which is something only a racist communist Nazi FUDD would do.

    Have a good day, sir.


    PS: JK. Good post.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Dear DrTodd,

    I feel your post browbeats others into not talking about certain subjects, which is something only a racist communist Nazi FUDD would do.

    Have a good day, sir.


    PS: JK. Good post.
    Although you said that you were kidding, you do bring up a point I wish to add. I too have disagreed with someone's statement and, upon reflection, self-policed my post by removing it because it appeared personal. I didn't write this thinking myself holier than others here; I am guilty at times too.
    Also, I prefer communist racist Nazi Fudd... just to let you know.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-13-2012 at 03:46 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Why is there an incessant need to denigrate in a public forum?
    You spelled defecate wrong...

    Thank you for posting this, as it is a topic that has always concerned me. Not specifically Stainless but just how things can get out of hand when there are disagreements on issues that come up. I have voiced concerns occasionally but none so well worded as yours.

    After all, we're in this together, right folks?

  12. #12
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StingMP9 View Post
    as though we are talking face to face.
    Good advice, and easily forgotten.

  13. #13
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    i think its excessive, i know of a few people that dont come to ocdo simply because of the nonsense that many users here partake in(that is, constant personal attacks, luckily the worst offenders have been banned)

    and i know that alot of old regulars stopped posting because of the bickering, mikestilly, kimberguy, kyleplusitunes and thway just to name a few.

    stainless very rarely, if ever, resorts to personal attacks even though nearly every post he makes garners at least one personal attack against him. He has always tried to stay true to the topic even when his views are not popular, and many of the people bickering about him say/do the same or similar things and then blow up when somebody even suggests that they're view is inappropriate.

    its mostly the "elitist" group that does it...the guys that are making $25+ an hour, a $600+ gun and always dress business casual at "worst" and think that anything less is unacceptable in public, especially for open carry....its those guys, both in and out of gun rights organization leadership roles that are bad for the public image.

    also note that most of those "elite" have histories many would deem more objectionable than that of stainless...prone to verbal fits of rage,extreme perverseness, history of verbal threats, compulsive liars, history of stalking former spouses, alcohol abuse...those are just some of the histories of those elitists when compared to stainless's supposed CC in no-cc zone.

    many people act like stainless is the only one with stinky sh*t, when in reality most of them have sh*t that stinks twice as bad if not worse.

    btw,MP9, kimberguy still is a regular lurker, just barely posts...
    Last edited by lil_freak_66; 07-13-2012 at 03:58 PM.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  14. #14
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    You spelled defecate wrong...


    Dangit... everyone's always funnier than me..
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StingMP9 View Post
    Thanks Todd, you've always been helpful to anyone looking for the correct wording and opinion of what we can do as our RKBA. Thanks for requesting the negativity to stop. That for the ANTIS to feed and latch onto.
    I also feel Stainless has done very much for the overall public good even though he has had his personal situations that have taken negative directions and removed his CPL couple times. Despite what his actions have done for his own circumstances he is among the first to welcome new persons to the site and provide helpful knowledge, like what Not to do.
    These attacks against our friends have always foolish Philistine behavior counter to our goal to unfettered RKBA. I think it is attacks like this that removed other friendly but attacked contributors such as Kimberguy (whom I haven't seen mention of in just over 2 years)...he had a lot of knowledge and police interaction although a controversial relationship with many users here (probably due to his passion for LGOC). I think some users who are organization members or officers here think it is there duty to say too much on OCDO rather than keep it on their own site where they own that content. I usually see a lot of negative attacks by such members. This is why I don't contribute here even though its free and open and definitely why I won't join forces with such a members organization.

    Its like hearing why some guy won't join your church because they who observe from the outside see how you really act outside your church. We all need to grow up and respect each other as though we are talking face to face.
    You said it much better than I. There are many more people that don't post here anymore, some for reasons other than what we are discussing. But, one of the things that first drew me to this website was that people could ask questions, and from those questions people could see a discussion and resolution develop, which then became another piece in the puzzle. I distinctly recall years ago when I proposed that a CPL holder could OC in a Pistol Free Zone. Many said that my use of the AG opinion was wrong because that opinion only concerned reserve officers in uniform. After much deliberation, including me even doubting my own assertion at times, what was doubted soon became OCing with a CPL gospel. During all of the discussion though, even though there were those who had strong opinions, no one ever personally attacked anyone else's behavior. Through the years many here have made some huge OC mistakes. People would respond appropriately and we all learned from other's errors.
    I know, some of us "old-timers" get a little peeved when someone asks a question about something we feel we have beaten to death, or read about OC and head straight for a Meijer store even though they don't have a CPL. But, sometimes we just have to take a deep breath and explain again why that behavior can get someone thrown in jail. We all were new to this at some time.

  16. #16
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Dr. Todd: Well said but alas... falling on deaf ears to those it should mean something to.

    I have brought this up many, many times over the last three years. It has the limited effect of a speed bump; read, post/not post, over and done with.

    At my last count there are over twenty members that used to post frequently and are now gone or like myself rarely post.
    It is more of a rarity that a newbee question gets answered, rather than flamed more so than when I joined in 2008.
    So in less than four years this forum has went from excited teaching to ravenous flaming out of boredom and nothing better to bitch about.

    So Sad...

  17. #17
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Dr. Todd: Well said but alas... falling on deaf ears to those it should mean something to.

    I have brought this up many, many times over the last three years. It has the limited effect of a speed bump; read, post/not post, over and done with.

    At my last count there are over twenty members that used to post frequently and are now gone or like myself rarely post.
    It is more of a rarity that a newbee question gets answered, rather than flamed more so than when I joined in 2008.
    So in less than four years this forum has went from excited teaching to ravenous flaming out of boredom and nothing better to bitch about.

    So Sad...
    I'm probably on your list...

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    I'm probably on your list...
    I certainly hope not!

    JK - Warchild.

    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  19. #19
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Hee Hee...now that's funny!
    I guess no one wants on my list...

  20. #20
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Dr. Todd: Well said but alas... falling on deaf ears to those it should mean something to.

    I have brought this up many, many times over the last three years. It has the limited effect of a speed bump; read, post/not post, over and done with.

    At my last count there are over twenty members that used to post frequently and are now gone or like myself rarely post.
    It is more of a rarity that a newbee question gets answered, rather than flamed more so than when I joined in 2008.
    So in less than four years this forum has went from excited teaching to ravenous flaming out of boredom and nothing better to bitch about.

    So Sad...
    My very good friend.... I understand why folks would become discouraged and stop posting. But I have a different perspective that perhaps might help.............

    As long as I stay away, if I don't oppose the BS, then... the arseholes win.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  21. #21
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Hee Hee...now that's funny!
    I guess no one wants on my list...
    And "Fear The Hat!" should be your bumper-sticker.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  22. #22
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    My very good friend.... I understand why folks would become discouraged and stop posting. But I have a different perspective that perhaps might help.............

    As long as I stay away, if I don't oppose the BS, then... the arseholes win.
    Very true my friend but when the negatives outweigh the positive interactions; it's not worth my time to interact with them.
    Kinda like dealing with anit's...once their mind is made up and position is made...you're never going to convince them otherwise!

    nuff for today...back in the bushes

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    My very good friend.... I understand why folks would become discouraged and stop posting. But I have a different perspective that perhaps might help.............

    As long as I stay away, if I don't oppose the BS, then... the arseholes win.
    I agree. It's hard to correct things about which one refuses to be involved.

  24. #24
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Involved yes. Not joining the ******* matches and worthless bashing discussions...no.

    I miss the old days of true discussion of trying to solve a problem and lay out a valid response plan. Don't see it happening much anymore; just armchair quarterbacks complaining about what should/not have been done.

    BTW: the ole "hat" was retired and the new hat has yet to build it's reputation.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Involved yes. Not joining the ******* matches and worthless bashing discussions...no.

    I miss the old days of true discussion of trying to solve a problem and lay out a valid response plan. Don't see it happening much anymore; just armchair quarterbacks complaining about what should/not have been done.

    BTW: the ole "hat" was retired and the new hat has yet to build it's reputation.
    And again I understand your perspective my friend (when we going to lunch? I think it's my turn to buy.) but again I have a different perspective in that peeing matches generally spew all sorts of misinformation and bad information that, if unchecked or not challenged, will be read.. and believed.. by some poor schmuck new to this whole thing. I know.. I used to be that schmuck.. and sometimes still am.

    I don't argue for the sake of arguing.. but I do challenge BS just so the truth is told.

    And it is the truth that needs to be told.. and told again.. and told again.. and again.. as often as it is needed to be told.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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