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Thread: Personal Attacks

  1. #26
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Involved yes. Not joining the ******* matches and worthless bashing discussions...no.

    I miss the old days of true discussion of trying to solve a problem and lay out a valid response plan. Don't see it happening much anymore; just armchair quarterbacks complaining about what should/not have been done.

    BTW: the ole "hat" was retired and the new hat has yet to build it's reputation.
    I really don't blame people for leaving. I just think if it is done to send a message, people forget and just move on. But if they, like you, check in every once in a while, then at least the point can be made.

  2. #27
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I do truly miss the informed discussions that used to take place here. I for one have to admit that most of what I know now, I learned on this forum and/or from the people in it.
    I have been following a little more in the last few weeks but have seen the posts still degrade to attacks; some in a very short time.
    I have many questions even regarding the latest bills but will take it up with Venator or someone...FTF or PM.
    The last time I tried to understand a bill was...well let's say ill received because of my misinformed opinion.
    I hesitate to have the same experience; hence my dismay of the lost ability to calmly educate a reasonable question, so I look elsewhere for the answer.

  3. #28
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    We do have productive discussions here, you just have to learn how to fly through the flack, and see through the smoke.

  4. #29
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    I am a relative n00b here, less than one year member and OCer, so I don't know the people you are talking about who've left this forum. I will tell you, though, that OCDO, as well as MOC, have been invaluable to me as a relatively new OCer. I owe both of you a debt of gratitude. I have carried for about 18 years, but always CC until last year. I am so thankful to you here and over at MOC, and I have stated so in several posts.

    These forums are invaluable to both new OCers like myself as well as to long-time OCers because, as we see almost daily, the laws are continually changing, and these forums help us to keep abreast of those changes, and to become a part of them and to influence them if we wish.

    The benefit of these forums cannot be overstated. It is sad to read of people leaving.
    Last edited by griffin; 07-13-2012 at 11:24 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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  5. #30
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    We do have productive discussions here, you just have to learn how to fly through the flack, and see through the smoke.
    I do know how and used to do just that. I'm saying it is no longer worth my time and effort to do so. My opinions are not worth the effort.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    My opinions are not worth the effort.
    Bull.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    I do know how and used to do just that. I'm saying it is no longer worth my time and effort to do so. My opinions are not worth the effort.
    I find your opinions to have great worth... well.... all except your opinion of what is a good looking hat.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  8. #33
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I find your opinions to have great worth... well.... all except your opinion of what is a good looking hat.
    Well I never... not even the new one?

  9. #34
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Well I never... not even the new one?
    Especially not the new one! At least the old one had an "air" about it.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Lately, I find myself attempting to interject my thoughts and opinions more and more here. I feel as though I have earned the right here to say certain things without being flamed. With that in mind, I have also admitted to being wrong, which is not easy for alot of people, including me.

    Some people have a harder time realizing what they are doing to other people, or even themselves. And I often question a couple of members true beliefs. But, its their right.

    We need to remember what we are all here for. Lets not fight amongst each other. If we do, they will eventually win.

    P.S. And if thats not easy for some to remember, the rules of this board prohibit personal attacks. And while the staff have been trying to keep it under control, we need to police ourselves.
    Eye95......
    “I am not with you. If the particular way in which you choose to break the laws is to take up arms against the government, know that I will, at the moment, choose to stand on the government's side and take up arms against you."
    In reference to the March on DC.

    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    It is sad to read of people leaving.
    The phrase "an armed society is a polite society" is unfortunately a lie. The community seems to look up to these type of people and they tend to hold various leadership roles. I'm quite content going solo. I would rather have a lack of support than an abundance of discouragement.

    That's all I'll say about that.

  12. #37
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    The phrase "an armed society is a polite society" is unfortunately a lie. The community seems to look up to these type of people and they tend to hold various leadership roles. I'm quite content going solo. I would rather have a lack of support than an abundance of discouragement.

    That's all I'll say about that.
    While the repeated personal attacks are unnecessary I know why they happen. The leaders of various groups constantly get attacked themselves about the antics of the persons they attack. This is not an excuse but rather I do understand unfortunately.

    And the saying is accurate if you are talking about in person discussion. Unfortunately people tend to get carried away behind the keyboard.

    Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2

  13. #38
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    Well, thats one way to put it.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    While the repeated personal attacks are unnecessary I know why they happen. The leaders of various groups constantly get attacked themselves about the antics of the persons they attack. This is not an excuse but rather I do understand unfortunately.
    I see what you are saying, but if they or anyone else has a problem, they need to take it to PM, or they need to make an effort to not respond with personal attacks or bullying.

    I have not renewed my membership with MOC simply because of the issues explained in this thread. The personal attacks are hurting us more than the antics.
    Last edited by kubel; 07-15-2012 at 03:45 PM.

  15. #40
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    i think its excessive, i know of a few people that dont come to ocdo simply because of the nonsense that many users here partake in(that is, constant personal attacks, luckily the worst offenders have been banned)

    and i know that alot of old regulars stopped posting because of the bickering, mikestilly, kimberguy, kyleplusitunes and thway just to name a few.

    stainless very rarely, if ever, resorts to personal attacks even though nearly every post he makes garners at least one personal attack against him. He has always tried to stay true to the topic even when his views are not popular, and many of the people bickering about him say/do the same or similar things and then blow up when somebody even suggests that they're view is inappropriate.

    its mostly the "elitist" group that does it...the guys that are making $25+ an hour, a $600+ gun and always dress business casual at "worst" and think that anything less is unacceptable in public, especially for open carry....its those guys, both in and out of gun rights organization leadership roles that are bad for the public image.

    also note that most of those "elite" have histories many would deem more objectionable than that of stainless...prone to verbal fits of rage,extreme perverseness, history of verbal threats, compulsive liars, history of stalking former spouses, alcohol abuse...those are just some of the histories of those elitists when compared to stainless's supposed CC in no-cc zone.

    many people act like stainless is the only one with stinky sh*t, when in reality most of them have sh*t that stinks twice as bad if not worse.

    btw,MP9, kimberguy still is a regular lurker, just barely posts...
    Great post in trying to bring people together... Didn't the OP ask for the Personal Attacks to stop?
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Great post in trying to bring people together... Didn't the OP ask for the Personal Attacks to stop?
    Pd you never fail to be clueless in a matter. Still pretty lame here with the same people who will never learn. As to the people you think are banned. They're not. They simply use new handles. This site is a good example of what's wrong with the gun rights community these days.

  17. #42
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I have been hesitant to post my thoughts as I just hoped that such behavior would eventually subside. However, especially within the past few months, I have seen an increased tendency to not only criticize posters for the content of their posts, but to also cross the line to making personal attacks... and to continually make these attacks month after month, post after post.
    I am somewhat dismayed that some here continue to browbeat Stainless, or anyone else. Although I can understand the wish to not have certain comments be indicative of the group as a whole, making comments beyond a few instructive reponses to things posted here does this group a huge disservice.

    In the hope to put criticism of Stainless to rest, let me provide the following:

    In regards to the Stainless’ "CC on school property" charge, the reason that he lost is that he did not appear to be as believable as the accuser. Since it was a civil infraction, a violation of the law less serious than a misdemeanor which usually does not attach certain individual rights, Stainless was easily found responsible for violating the law. As one can plainly see in the excerpt below, it is pretty easy to find one responsible for a Civil Infraction. Unless you have serious substantiation backing up your claims of innocence, the most likely outcome is that you are found guilty of violating the law.

    In considering the evidence presented by both parties at an informal civil infraction
    hearing, the magistrate should render a decision that is supported by a preponderance
    of the evidence. (MCL 600.8719[4], MCL 600.8821[5]) When the evidence shows
    that a fact is more likely than not consistent with a party's description of it, that fact
    is said to be established by a preponderance of the evidence. (Black's Law
    Dictionary [5th Edition, 1979]) A preponderance of the evidence is sometimes
    expressed as a 51 percent showing that the evidence is consistent with a party's
    version of the facts.
    The burden of proof by preponderance of the evidence in civil infraction cases is
    much different than the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal cases.
    The prosecution bears a much heavier burden of proof in criminal cases than does
    the plaintiff in civil infraction cases. To establish a fact beyond a reasonable doubt,
    the trier of fact must be entirely convinced of it, to a moral certainty. (Black's Law
    Dictionary [5th Edition, 1979])
    If the magistrate determines by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant is
    responsible for the infraction, the magistrate shall enter an order against the
    defendant as provided in MCL 600.8727 or MCL 600.8827. Otherwise a judgment
    shall be entered in favor of the defendant. (MCL 600.8719[4], MCL 600.8819[4])
    -Page 37 of the State Court Handbook found here: http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/reso...is/mcllist.pdf

    Regarding the unfortunate events that precluded the revocation of his CPL, I really feel that some here wish to just keep bringing up something that doesn’t need to be rehashed by arm-chair quarterbacks. Yes, on the face of it, the incident was predicated upon poor choices made by Stainless. However, I have made some poor choices in my life and I'm sure that many here could also say the same. Do we need to call everyone out for those choices on a public forum… over and over again?

    What bothers me most about the issue is that the Sate of Michigan has an extremely large number of disqualifying violations of the law that can keep one from either getting a CPL or maintaining one that they have already received: Call an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend to get some of your things back and threaten to come over there and get you things, no CPL for 3 years (Malicious use of telephones, MCL 750.540e). Take some items inadvertently home from work (Embezzlement, MCL 750.174). Your 1st grade child, who lives with your ex-spouse takes a firearm to school because the mother's boyfriend just leaves his firearms around the house, loss of CPL for 8 years (Parent of a minor who possessed a firearm in a weapon-free school zone, MCL 750.235a); keep your prescription medication in a Pill-A-Day container instead of the original prescription bottle, loss of CPL for 3 years (Controlled substances, MCL 333.7401 to 333.7461) There was even one case that I know of second-hand that the CPL was revoked, not for any one specific conviction, but rather that the person's background convinced the sheriff that the person was a danger to themselves or others. Although I believe that the person could successfully fight the sheriff's opinion because there really is no probable cause for the sheriff to believe that the person is a danger, rather the person has been a vocal critic of the sheriff and his cronies, the person doesn't have enough money to successfully take the sheriff to court.
    All of these charges, although seemingly egregious, have been successfully used to keep otherwise decent individuals from being able to get a license which allows them ALMOST unfettered carry. Most states have a very small list of disqualifying convictions that prohibit someone from getting a license to carry a concealed firearm.

    In regards to a statement made about Stainless concerning the get-together in Birmingham, Stainless was advised by many members here not to attend, to "lay low" and stay out of the spotlight. Stainless wisely heeded the advice. But, much to my surprise, one of these same individuals then brought up Stainless' absence from the Birmingham event as some sort of "proof" that Stainless was not really supportive of Sean and had no right to assert an opinion. Let a person's opinions/posts be judged on the content of what they post, not based upon personal prejudices.

    In regards to posts claiming that members here are racist, communist, Nazis, FUDS, etc...

    As OC becomes more popular, I’m sure that there will be an increasing number of people who will do or say things that you may feel are not representative of your thoughts and therefore not representative of this group. If someone here does not care to be associated with anyone else, so be it. If you go to an event and that person is there, don't talk to the person. Agree to disagree. One or two comments on the forum that serves to instruct rather than browbeat a person is fine. But, to continually interject the disdain into post after post not only makes THE POSTER appear to be a little “off”, it communicates this to the greater community. If you wish to criticize someone beyond a few instructive comments, either keep your opinion to yourself or send the person with whom you have an issue a PM. Why is there an incessant need to denigrate in a public forum?
    Thank You! As one who has cleaned up my past,in order to exercise my Rights,according to vague and burdensome laws,I am not one to point out others faults! OUR RIGHTS DO NOT HINGE ON OUR PAST FAULTS! WE ALL HAVE FAULTS!MOST OF THOSE FAULTS DO NOT SHOW UP ON A RAP SHEET! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Pd you never fail to be clueless in a matter.
    personal attack

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    You said it much better than I. There are many more people that don't post here anymore, some for reasons other than what we are discussing. But, one of the things that first drew me to this website was that people could ask questions, and from those questions people could see a discussion and resolution develop, which then became another piece in the puzzle. I distinctly recall years ago when I proposed that a CPL holder could OC in a Pistol Free Zone. Many said that my use of the AG opinion was wrong because that opinion only concerned reserve officers in uniform. After much deliberation, including me even doubting my own assertion at times, what was doubted soon became OCing with a CPL gospel. During all of the discussion though, even though there were those who had strong opinions, no one ever personally attacked anyone else's behavior. Through the years many here have made some huge OC mistakes. People would respond appropriately and we all learned from other's errors.
    I know, some of us "old-timers" get a little peeved when someone asks a question about something we feel we have beaten to death, or read about OC and head straight for a Meijer store even though they don't have a CPL. But, sometimes we just have to take a deep breath and explain again why that behavior can get someone thrown in jail. We all were new to this at some time.
    Gray Peterson and I both brought up in 2006 in the Michigan thread of this forum that people could OC in PFZ's. If I recall, everyone came out against us.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    The phrase "an armed society is a polite society" is unfortunately a lie. The community seems to look up to these type of people and they tend to hold various leadership roles. I'm quite content going solo. I would rather have a lack of support than an abundance of discouragement.

    That's all I'll say about that.
    An armed society IS a polite society.. Just not on the Internet

  21. #46
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    An armed society IS a polite society.. Just not on the Internet
    Perhaps because a keyboard is a form of concealment?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  22. #47
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Perhaps because a keyboard is a form of concealment?
    Concealment, yes; but not cover.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  23. #48
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Pd you never fail to be clueless in a matter. Still pretty lame here with the same people who will never learn. As to the people you think are banned. They're not. They simply use new handles. This site is a good example of what's wrong with the gun rights community these days.
    The OP asked for Personal Attacks to stop. Please.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    personal attack
    Would you like me to cut and paste your 10-15 personal attacks on lilFreak and Stainless? There are some truely fake people on here.
    Last edited by mikestilly; 07-16-2012 at 09:59 PM.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Would you like me to cut and paste your 10-15 personal attacks on lilFreak and Stainless? There are some truely fake people on here.
    But my personal attacks weren't in a thread about stopping personal attacks. Go ahead a paste them all(there are more than 15), I'm proud of each one.

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