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Personal Attacks

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mikestilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
1,869
Location
Macomb County, Michigan, USA
Great post in trying to bring people together... Didn't the OP ask for the Personal Attacks to stop?

Pd you never fail to be clueless in a matter. Still pretty lame here with the same people who will never learn. As to the people you think are banned. They're not. They simply use new handles. This site is a good example of what's wrong with the gun rights community these days.
 

Haman J.T.

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Joined
Feb 5, 2008
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1,245
Location
, ,
I have been hesitant to post my thoughts as I just hoped that such behavior would eventually subside. However, especially within the past few months, I have seen an increased tendency to not only criticize posters for the content of their posts, but to also cross the line to making personal attacks... and to continually make these attacks month after month, post after post.
I am somewhat dismayed that some here continue to browbeat Stainless, or anyone else. Although I can understand the wish to not have certain comments be indicative of the group as a whole, making comments beyond a few instructive reponses to things posted here does this group a huge disservice.

In the hope to put criticism of Stainless to rest, let me provide the following:

In regards to the Stainless’ "CC on school property" charge, the reason that he lost is that he did not appear to be as believable as the accuser. Since it was a civil infraction, a violation of the law less serious than a misdemeanor which usually does not attach certain individual rights, Stainless was easily found responsible for violating the law. As one can plainly see in the excerpt below, it is pretty easy to find one responsible for a Civil Infraction. Unless you have serious substantiation backing up your claims of innocence, the most likely outcome is that you are found guilty of violating the law.

In considering the evidence presented by both parties at an informal civil infraction
hearing, the magistrate should render a decision that is supported by a preponderance
of the evidence. (MCL 600.8719[4], MCL 600.8821[5]) When the evidence shows
that a fact is more likely than not consistent with a party's description of it, that fact
is said to be established by a preponderance of the evidence. (Black's Law
Dictionary [5th Edition, 1979]) A preponderance of the evidence is sometimes
expressed as a 51 percent showing that the evidence is consistent with a party's
version of the facts.
The burden of proof by preponderance of the evidence in civil infraction cases is
much different than the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal cases.
The prosecution bears a much heavier burden of proof in criminal cases than does
the plaintiff in civil infraction cases. To establish a fact beyond a reasonable doubt,
the trier of fact must be entirely convinced of it, to a moral certainty. (Black's Law
Dictionary [5th Edition, 1979])
If the magistrate determines by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant is
responsible for the infraction, the magistrate shall enter an order against the
defendant as provided in MCL 600.8727 or MCL 600.8827. Otherwise a judgment
shall be entered in favor of the defendant. (MCL 600.8719[4], MCL 600.8819[4])
-Page 37 of the State Court Handbook found here: http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/resources/publications/manuals/magis/mcllist.pdf

Regarding the unfortunate events that precluded the revocation of his CPL, I really feel that some here wish to just keep bringing up something that doesn’t need to be rehashed by arm-chair quarterbacks. Yes, on the face of it, the incident was predicated upon poor choices made by Stainless. However, I have made some poor choices in my life and I'm sure that many here could also say the same. Do we need to call everyone out for those choices on a public forum… over and over again?

What bothers me most about the issue is that the Sate of Michigan has an extremely large number of disqualifying violations of the law that can keep one from either getting a CPL or maintaining one that they have already received: Call an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend to get some of your things back and threaten to come over there and get you things, no CPL for 3 years (Malicious use of telephones, MCL 750.540e). Take some items inadvertently home from work (Embezzlement, MCL 750.174). Your 1st grade child, who lives with your ex-spouse takes a firearm to school because the mother's boyfriend just leaves his firearms around the house, loss of CPL for 8 years (Parent of a minor who possessed a firearm in a weapon-free school zone, MCL 750.235a); keep your prescription medication in a Pill-A-Day container instead of the original prescription bottle, loss of CPL for 3 years (Controlled substances, MCL 333.7401 to 333.7461) There was even one case that I know of second-hand that the CPL was revoked, not for any one specific conviction, but rather that the person's background convinced the sheriff that the person was a danger to themselves or others. Although I believe that the person could successfully fight the sheriff's opinion because there really is no probable cause for the sheriff to believe that the person is a danger, rather the person has been a vocal critic of the sheriff and his cronies, the person doesn't have enough money to successfully take the sheriff to court.
All of these charges, although seemingly egregious, have been successfully used to keep otherwise decent individuals from being able to get a license which allows them ALMOST unfettered carry. Most states have a very small list of disqualifying convictions that prohibit someone from getting a license to carry a concealed firearm.

In regards to a statement made about Stainless concerning the get-together in Birmingham, Stainless was advised by many members here not to attend, to "lay low" and stay out of the spotlight. Stainless wisely heeded the advice. But, much to my surprise, one of these same individuals then brought up Stainless' absence from the Birmingham event as some sort of "proof" that Stainless was not really supportive of Sean and had no right to assert an opinion. Let a person's opinions/posts be judged on the content of what they post, not based upon personal prejudices.

In regards to posts claiming that members here are racist, communist, Nazis, FUDS, etc...

As OC becomes more popular, I’m sure that there will be an increasing number of people who will do or say things that you may feel are not representative of your thoughts and therefore not representative of this group. If someone here does not care to be associated with anyone else, so be it. If you go to an event and that person is there, don't talk to the person. Agree to disagree. One or two comments on the forum that serves to instruct rather than browbeat a person is fine. But, to continually interject the disdain into post after post not only makes THE POSTER appear to be a little “off”, it communicates this to the greater community. If you wish to criticize someone beyond a few instructive comments, either keep your opinion to yourself or send the person with whom you have an issue a PM. Why is there an incessant need to denigrate in a public forum?
Thank You! As one who has cleaned up my past,in order to exercise my Rights,according to vague and burdensome laws,I am not one to point out others faults! OUR RIGHTS DO NOT HINGE ON OUR PAST FAULTS! WE ALL HAVE FAULTS!MOST OF THOSE FAULTS DO NOT SHOW UP ON A RAP SHEET! CARRY ON!
 

Jared

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
892
Location
Michigan, USA
You said it much better than I. There are many more people that don't post here anymore, some for reasons other than what we are discussing. But, one of the things that first drew me to this website was that people could ask questions, and from those questions people could see a discussion and resolution develop, which then became another piece in the puzzle. I distinctly recall years ago when I proposed that a CPL holder could OC in a Pistol Free Zone. Many said that my use of the AG opinion was wrong because that opinion only concerned reserve officers in uniform. After much deliberation, including me even doubting my own assertion at times, what was doubted soon became OCing with a CPL gospel. During all of the discussion though, even though there were those who had strong opinions, no one ever personally attacked anyone else's behavior. Through the years many here have made some huge OC mistakes. People would respond appropriately and we all learned from other's errors.
I know, some of us "old-timers" get a little peeved when someone asks a question about something we feel we have beaten to death, or read about OC and head straight for a Meijer store even though they don't have a CPL. But, sometimes we just have to take a deep breath and explain again why that behavior can get someone thrown in jail. We all were new to this at some time.

Gray Peterson and I both brought up in 2006 in the Michigan thread of this forum that people could OC in PFZ's. If I recall, everyone came out against us.
 

Jared

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
892
Location
Michigan, USA
The phrase "an armed society is a polite society" is unfortunately a lie. The community seems to look up to these type of people and they tend to hold various leadership roles. I'm quite content going solo. I would rather have a lack of support than an abundance of discouragement.

That's all I'll say about that.

An armed society IS a polite society.. Just not on the Internet :)
 

PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
Pd you never fail to be clueless in a matter. Still pretty lame here with the same people who will never learn. As to the people you think are banned. They're not. They simply use new handles. This site is a good example of what's wrong with the gun rights community these days.

The OP asked for Personal Attacks to stop. Please.
 

PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
Would you like me to cut and paste your 10-15 personal attacks on lilFreak and Stainless? There are some truely fake people on here.

Mike -

Everyone here on this site has been guilty of Personal Attacks from time to time, you included. I believe that the OP has asked that the Personal Attacks stop. If you cannot do this, please feel free to go back to UFO which you left OCDO/MOC for. It is my sincere hope that people stay and try to work together for OUR RIGHTS.

- Paul
 

autosurgeon

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3,831
Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
Would you like me to cut and paste your 10-15 personal attacks on lilFreak and Stainless? There are some truely fake people on here.

Your actions are no different... the point of this thread is that people cease the personal attacks not that other people should begin attacking those they themselves deem to be attackers.

Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2
 

PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
How is this not a contradiction.

While I would like everyone to stay here and work together, the simple fact is that not everyone will get along and the Personal Attacks do truly take away from furthering OUR RIGHTS.

I'll say this just once: If you cannot get along with others reasonably well, leave and go elsewhere.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
If you see personal attacks and the poster does not cease or is overboard, report it.

If you find banned users you know have reregistered, report them with both screen names.

Help keep OCDO strong and focused, but let's do our housecleaning in private.
 
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