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Thread: Ever open carry at church?

  1. #1
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    Ever open carry at church?

    I have thought about this for a while, and if I have the nerve, I will do it tomorrow.

    Just for the heck of it, I sent the Pastor at a Church in Colorado Springs an email last night telling him that I planned to visit while OCing this Sunday morning, and told him that he had the option of asking me to leave if he wished. I haven't heard back from him. (I wonder if he is reporting it to the police as a threat?)

    I think that it could be an educational experience for many, and hopefully help normalize the activity.

    I asked about it on a very liberal Christian forum, (30,000 subscribers) and several people, including a pastor, said that I would be welcome. Some were shocked at the idea, but after I explained that an openly carried, holstered weapon is no threat to law abiding citizens, and that anyone up to no good would conceal it, a slight majority opined that it would be OK. There were a couple of Aussies, Kiwis, and Brits that were appalled at the idea.
    Last edited by Hamans-gallows; 07-16-2012 at 12:21 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamans-gallows View Post
    I have thought about this for a while, and if I have the nerve, I will do it tomorrow.

    Just for the heck of it, I sent the Pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Colorado Springs an email last night telling him that I planned to visit while OCing this Sunday morning, and told him that he had the option of asking me to leave if he wished. I haven't heard back from him. (I wonder if he is reporting it to the police as a threat?)

    I think that it could be an educational experience for many, and hopefully help normalize the activity.

    I asked about it on a very liberal Christian forum, (30,000 subscribers) and several people, including a pastor, said that I would be welcome. Some were shocked at the idea, but after I explained that an openly carried, holstered weapon is no threat to law abiding citizens, and that anyone up to no good would conceal it, a slight majority opined that it would be OK. There were a couple of Aussies, Kiwis, and Brits that were appalled at the idea.
    You could always remind people of the guy that walked into a church in the springs a little bit ago and started shooting people. An off duty deputy had her concealed handgun on her at the time and stopped the guy in the lobby before he made it into the sanctuary. I don't remember exact numbers, but I believe 2 or 3 people were shot before she could respond and took him down. BUT, she saved dozens of lives by keeping him from getting into the many body of the church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    You could always remind people of the guy that walked into a church in the springs a little bit ago and started shooting people. An off duty deputy had her concealed handgun on her at the time and stopped the guy in the lobby before he made it into the sanctuary. I don't remember exact numbers, but I believe 2 or 3 people were shot before she could respond and took him down. BUT, she saved dozens of lives by keeping him from getting into the many body of the church.
    Actually she was a private citizen that was volunteering to do security.

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamans-gallows View Post
    Actually she was a private citizen that was volunteering to do security.
    Thank you for the correction. I thought it was an off duty officer.

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    What's a church?

    --Rob
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    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I have open carried at a church in VA. I didn't get any more reaction than if I had carried to Burger King. I think you'll find the experience similar to everywhere else. Most people either won't notice or won't care. I'd encourage you to do it and let us know how it goes.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky
    You could always remind people of the guy that walked into a church in the springs a little bit ago and started shooting people. An off duty deputy had her concealed handgun on her at the time and stopped the guy in the lobby before he made it into the sanctuary. I don't remember exact numbers, but I believe 2 or 3 people were shot before she could respond and took him down. BUT, she saved dozens of lives by keeping him from getting into the many body of the church.
    Jeanne Assam was an ex-leo who volunteered for security duty at that mega-church.
    The murderer started at another church & shot 4 people (2 dead, 2 wounded), then drove to the campus where she was, shot 5 people in the parking lot (2d / 3w), came inside, shot 1 more person, then she shot him. After she shot him several times, he killed himself.
    One account...
    There are church shootings across the country.

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    Regular Member Bellum_Intus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I have open carried at a church in VA. I didn't get any more reaction than if I had carried to Burger King. I think you'll find the experience similar to everywhere else. Most people either won't notice or won't care. I'd encourage you to do it and let us know how it goes.
    The only Church I know of (for sure) that disallows carry is in Utah, the Mormon church, and they are backed up by Utah code 76-10-530

    --Rob
    Kenaz Tactical Group

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
    --Margaret Thatcher

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellum_Intus View Post
    What's a church?

    --Rob
    It's a place where people go on Sunday morning to affirm one another and boost their self-esteem.

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    VA prohibits OC while services are being conducted

    As well some churchs double as schools which would be a concern so make sure its not a k-12 school

  11. #11
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    I have OCed at my church but usually conceal.

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

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    VA churchs

    VA rules

    Forbidden Places
    • K-12 Schools no Open-Carry. Firearm may be inside container or glove box, loaded, and you must stay in vehicle. To park and leave vehicle on school property, firearm must be unloaded in trunk or locked container.
    • Church Property No Open-Carry during any services
    • US, Virginia, or Fairfax Government Buildings, but not National Parks or State Forests;
    • National Forests and State Parks: Open-Carry allowed where hunting is allowed
    • VCU and George Mason Universities, except by permission.
    • Private Property when prohibited by owner (Watch for HOA’s and COA’s that prohibit on common property)
    Airline Transportation
    • Each airline has specific procedures. Check

    Read more: http://vagunforum.net/rules-and-regs...#ixzz20dbOmnCF

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cch10000 View Post
    VA prohibits OC while services are being conducted

    As well some churchs double as schools which would be a concern so make sure its not a k-12 school
    Good caveat. Thanks.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cch10000 View Post
    VA prohibits OC while services are being conducted
    You should be more careful before you post what you think is the law. Where is your cite? The above is just flat out wrong.

    In Virginia the law states that carry is prohibited in places of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held "without good and sufficient reason" (§18.2-283)

    Furthermore, the Virginia Attorney General has written an opinion that self defense is a "good and sufficient reason"
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/a...InChurches.pdf

    That being said, until a court case or new law determines otherwise, it is perfectly legal to open carry in a church.

    You are new to the cite so I'll remind you of the rules.

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    To the OP, I apologize for explaining VA law in your Colorado thread, but the mistake needed to be corrected.

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    First off there is no need to get snooty with me. If what I said was incorrect I'll be the first to say sorry for posting bad info. It was not my intention to just say some BS with no basis.

    And thank you for reminding me of the rules

    In the second post I showed where I got the info I used to make the first Statement. It is from the VA Forum of rules and regs for VA. I am not a lawyer and never pretend to be just shared information that I have read from My old home states forum. SO if the VA rules and regs post is wrong then so am I and my bad for beleiving them.

    I believe that some of these laws are written to be hard to interpret and that is why there is a protest picnic in Roanoke VA today, hope it went well

    CH

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    Colorado Virginia Utah its all good info worth sharing

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    Regular Member O2HeN2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    Thank you for the correction. I thought it was an off duty officer.
    The media reported and pushed the fact that she was an off-duty police officer and never corrected it when informed multiple times she was a private citizen.

    Private citizens stopping mass shootings doesn't fit with the agenda, yaknow...

    O2
    Last edited by O2HeN2; 07-14-2012 at 10:47 PM.
    When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    To the OP, I apologize for explaining VA law in your Colorado thread, but the mistake needed to be corrected.
    Gosh. You are welcome to say Anything you like, my friend.

  20. #20
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    This same topic came up in the Wisconsin board a few months ago.
    So far as I am concerned, as particular to Colorado, what they do in Wisconsin or Virginia, is really irrelevant to what is the state of affairs in Colorado.
    The question was raised about OC'ing in a Colorado church by a resident of Colorado who open carries in Colorado. So let's redirect to the question of carrying at church here in Colorado. I assume, in doing so, that the OP isn't planning to attend church in either Wisconsin or Virginia tomorrow so let's take up the question originally raised about OCing at a church in Colorado! What is relevant to his question?

    When my wife, my pardner and I all took our CCW class, we got the classroom part at a church. We all had our guns with us, and they had a classroom where the instructor taught the NRA part of the course. We later moved to the range to qualify by shooting a course of fire. But let's again focus on relevance to the OP's question.
    The purpose of the above is the church he attends provided classroom space for the CCW class he taught. He is a member of that church. During class, we asked about the whole church shooting cases in Colorado. He told us that the church we were in has some 5,000 members. Of that number, half of them carry to church on Sunday. Now he didn't say whether anybody OC'd, but did state they take their guns to Sunday meeting. Obviously, it would be a real bad idea for a BG to set upon that particular flock because they'll defend with ample firepower.

    The attack upon the New Life Church on the north side of Colorado Springs was the end of a chain of events that started over in Arvada. On December 9, 2007, Matthew J. Murray attacked the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada. Around 12:30 a.m. MST, following a Christmas banquet that had taken place earlier that night, a man knocked on the door of the Youth With a Mission center. The man asked personnel in the facility if he could stay at the center overnight. When he was refused, the man opened fire, killing Tiffany Johnson, the center's director of hospitality, and staff member Philip Crouse. Dan Griebenow, 24, was critically wounded with a bullet in his neck, and Charlie Blanch, 22, suffered bullet wounds to the leg. He then started his trip down toward Colorado Springs.

    It has long been questioned why he drove some 70 miles to target a specific church - New Life Church - while bypassing many others along the way. What the general public never knew was that the shooter stopped at another church in Highlands Ranch and was prowling the parking lot in his vehicle. Several members of the congregation there, having assumed responsibility for securing their church, spotted the vehicle and regarded it with suspicion. The shooter was stopped, perhaps considering whether to start an incident there while several members of the volunteer security team converged on his vehicle from several directions. He spotted them and took off. His next stop was New Life Church in Colorado Springs.

    On Sunday, December 9, 2007, at about 1 p.m. Murray, armed with a semi-automatic rifle and two pistols, entered the foyer of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and fatally shot two and wounded three others before himself being shot and wounded by Jeanne Assam, a former sworn Colorado police officer and a church member acting as security. Murray then took his own life.

    At about 1 p.m. MST, 30 minutes after the 11 a.m. service had ended at New Life Church, Murray opened fire in the church parking lot shooting the Works family and Judy Purcell, 40. Murray then entered the building's main foyer where he shot Larry Bourbonnais, 59, hitting him in the forearm. At this point, Assam opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon. Police say that after suffering multiple hits from Assam's gun, Murray fatally shot himself.

    Assam later stated that "God guided me and protected me [and I] did not think for a minute to run away."

    The pastor of the church stated that Assam shot Murray before he entered 50 feet (15 m) inside the building, after she encountered him in the hallway, and that Assam probably saved "over 100 lives."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Life_Church_shooting

    According to information from our CCW instructor, who is a deputy with Adams County Sheriff's Office, and another friend who makes holsters who is a church going man in Highlands Ranch, church attacks are on the rise. More are happening with each passing year. As a result, more churches are tolerant of members carrying to church. Some even encourage their members to carry to Sunday meeting.

    But the question is... what about OC? Most folks who carry to church conceal with permit. But should a member be denied carry who does not have a permit? I'd think they'd be accorded the same right of self defense as a concealed carrier. If I were at a church when an attack took place, would I really care if those who defended my life carried openly or concealed? I wouldn't think so. I think it would be plenty enough that they were armed and prepared to confront a threat. If I were a pastor, I'd think those folks carrying sidearms come to church to worship, and are prepared to stop a threat regardless of open carry or CCW holders.

    I believe that this sort of issue will vary from one church to another. One church will welcome the OC'er, while another will fuss about it if not concealed. Some may even state they don't want guns to be brought to church at all. The pastor usually doesn't have the final word on these matters. They often answer to a board that runs the church. The board may (or may not) reflect the opinion of a given congregation. The question becomes complex because most churches are incorporated, therefore able to set policy as they see fit.

    Now I ain't a church going kind of guy. I believe there is more pure divine presence in a mountain wilderness, under a cathedral of stars, than in any church I've ever attended. Acts 17:24-25
    That's my pure opinion, and I ain't really up for a debate on that as it would be irrelevant to the topic at hand. But I will say that an individual OC'er must decide for himself/herself.... do you want to attend a specific church that does not honor your right to carry as you see fit? Speaking for myself, should I decide to attend church, I would treat the church business just the same as any other business. If they don't support my right to lawful self defense, I'll take my business elsewhere.

    Churches are a dime a dozen. There are almost as many churches here as there are taverns in the metro area. Certainly more churches than 7-11s.
    I'll do business with the business that respects my 2a rights. That includes church business. I'll go where the focus is on spirituality, not whether I am carrying a handgun!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 07-15-2012 at 01:46 AM.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by O2HeN2 View Post
    The media reported and pushed the fact that she was an off-duty police officer and never corrected it when informed multiple times she was a private citizen.

    Private citizens stopping mass shootings doesn't fit with the agenda, yaknow...

    O2
    Interestingly enough, a couple of years ago one of the folks who came to my writers' group was one of the other security volunteers at New Life. After our meeting, he recounted the incident in explicit detail.

    You're right about her status, as well as the media's bent. They can't seem to fathom that private citizens can be highly effective.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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