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Thread: Well, I did visit a church while OCing this Morning. It went OK, but there was a snag

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    Well, I did visit a church while OCing this Morning. It went OK, but there was a snag

    There were only a couple of people in the foyer when I walked in. The first person that noticed me looked at me with wide eyes. I sat down next to him, and he said "Are you wearing a gun?' I said "Yes Sir." He said "Why? I responded "Well, I have a reason, bit I am not interested in discussing it right now." 30 seconds later he got up and walked away.

    I got reading the bulletin, and to my dismay read that some charter high school classes meet at the church during the school year. Now I had searched the church website, and it said nothing about a school.

    So I am thinking Oh Crap, is this considered a school? I almost left, but decided to stick it out. I reasoned that if this WAS considered a school, there was no reasonable way that I could have known that in advance.

    I tried to make my self inconspicuous, and very few people noticed that I was carrying.

    After the service, I chatted with a couple of men out front. They noticed my weapon, but seemed unconcerned.
    Last edited by Hamans-gallows; 07-15-2012 at 03:30 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    Not to critique you, but I think the "I have a reason ..." was probably more damaging than helpful. Just saying. Seems to me, and this just my opinion, it would have been simple to just say "For protection and safety. We can talk later if you'd like." Just sayin'.

    Otherwise, I'm getting more and more concerned about safety even here in sleepy little Colorado.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Glad to hear that it went pretty well. Did you ever get a response back from the pastor you emailed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Glad to hear that it went pretty well. Did you ever get a response back from the pastor you emailed?

    No, I never heard back from him. He wasn't preaching, so I guess he may have been out of town.

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    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Since you state you "did visit a church while OCing this morning" I'm assuming you weren't a regular there. Given that fact and the amount of tragic church shootings, do you think it was a wise move to OC?

    I personally wouldn't OC in a church until I had been there several times.

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    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    It seems to me that "tragic church shootings" would be a good reason to OC at church, not a reason to wait.
    And I have no problem with that, given that you would go to the church a few times, but I'd be a little apprehensive if someone I'd never seen before comes into my church OCing.

    Oh, there I've done it....


    Maybe we should pray about whether we should OC and follow Gods guidance, or is that not what going to church should be about.

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    I choose not to OC at church, and will CC once my permit comes in, I don't think my church would have any problem with it, however, I would never want anyone to stop coming to church because of something I did, especially if it was just openly carrying a firearm. Also, If or when we open carry, we should be transparent with the reasons why we open carry. You can say "MYOB", however if we want people on our side or at least tolerate our lifestyle, we should inform them of why we do what we do, and if we aren't willing to do that maybe consider CC. Just my thoughts, and maybe I am way off base, but I would rather educate people on the legality of open carry and why I do it, rather than shove them away and have them think that everyone who carries a firearm is a jerk.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLADad View Post
    I choose not to OC at church, and will CC once my permit comes in, I don't think my church would have any problem with it, however, I would never want anyone to stop coming to church because of something I did, especially if it was just openly carrying a firearm. Also, If or when we open carry, we should be transparent with the reasons why we open carry. You can say "MYOB", however if we want people on our side or at least tolerate our lifestyle, we should inform them of why we do what we do, and if we aren't willing to do that maybe consider CC. Just my thoughts, and maybe I am way off base, but I would rather educate people on the legality of open carry and why I do it, rather than shove them away and have them think that everyone who carries a firearm is a jerk.
    Howdy Amigo!
    We haven't met, but from this post, I am in awe. You hit so many hot-button issues in this one post that I can see opportunity to discuss quite awhile on some of them. I specify 'discuss' because I think some of these are really basic and elemental issues that many would prefer to ignore or pretend do not exist. You are to be commended for raising issues that will pick at sore spots that may bring resentment or angry responses. And I am about to take incoming right along side you, but from a different perspective.

    For example; you may choose to not OC at church. May CC when the government gives you permission to exercise your Constitutional right.
    That's one big issue right there. Why should a law abiding citizen need permission to embrace an inalienable right?

    From whence, or whom, do such inalienable rights flow?

    I understand how you wouldn't want somebody to stop coming to church because you OC'd, but how would you feel about stopping another OC'er from coming to church because they prefer to OC? Who gave them such authority to open carry anyhow?

    If an OC'er does not have, nor can afford, to secure a CCW permit, would you feel they shouldn't go to church until they finally break down and obtain one?

    If OC is merely a lifestyle, then it certainly should not be on the list of basic human rights. It is similar to saying freedom of speech is a lifestyle, or freedom of religion is merely a lifestyle, or freedom of peacable assembly... all just lifestyle choices. And the beauty of 'lifestyle', they can be easily controlled and regulated or even criminalized.

    Why carry a firearm to church at all?

    I absolutely agree regarding being open and informative about the legality and transparency in relation to OC. If we want our 'lifestyle' to be accepted and normalized within our society, we need to educate folks around us and win them over rather than glibly alienate them. We should be ambassadors for open carry. But does the OC'er who makes a different decision, one whereby he does not well tolerate fools, have a right to openly carry a firearm while also sporting a sizable chip on his shoulder?
    I ask this because I've seen a few OC'ers who seem to have such a chip on their shoulder and prefer animosity to understanding. In some cases, it almost seems like they're itching for a fight; or at minimum, an unreasoning argument. Ergo, the question arises, who makes the decision on how people behave while exercising their 2a right? And under the 1st Amendment, does the jerk not also have the right to speak as he will?

    There is an interesting irony here. Many who practice OC are pretty evangelical about it. They live it, preach it, and promote it.
    Similarly, folks of a particular religious perspective tend to be pretty evangelical about it. They live it, preach it, and promote it.
    How is it different for an OC'er to bring his openly carried firearm to church, than for a religious person to come to my door to proselytize?
    Many who shun religion feel that religious folks 'beat them over the head' with their beliefs.
    Similarly, there are many who accuse gay folks of flaunting their 'lifestyle' in people's face.
    Do we, likewise, proselytize open carry, flaunt our right or 'get in people's face'?
    Are these not legitimate questions that we should consider?

    With a remarkable economy of language, you've opened a Pandora's box filled with questions that ought reasonably be examined.
    These are perilous issues that draw visceral reaction. I do not have answers, but plenty of questions of my own.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 07-16-2012 at 07:28 AM.

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    I would have gave a much better, positive response than "I have my reasons." No wonder that gentleman got up and left. He got uncomfortable with your response. If I were that gentleman, I probably would've moved away from you and kept a weary eye on you. We are suppossed to be ambassadors of OC and help promote the cause, not make folks uncomfortable. Now if your demeanor was positive, it would help put folks at ease. I always keep a friendly demeanor at all times when I am openly carrying my sidearm because I try my best to be an OC ambassador and help promote the cause.

    While I don't regularly attend church services, if I were to become a member of a church and attend regularly, I would CC until the folks got to know me more before start OC'ing there. Just my personal choice. I attended a service at a small, rural church when I was in WI the weekend before this last one, and I CC'ed out of respect to the very small congregation because I was a complete stranger to these people who were used to rarely having outsiders come to their church. Once service was over, I uncovered my sidearm and went about my business.

    Blessings,

    Keens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamans-gallows View Post
    I said "Yes Sir." He said "Why? I responded "Well, I have a reason, bit I am not interested in discussing it right now." 30 seconds later he got up and walked away.
    Along with a few others here, that's my only real issue with what you did. For all he knows, you just told him to mind his own business while you seek out your targets. "Along with freedom of religion I have the right to bear arms Sir, and I am simply exercising that right." or maybe, "To protect myself from the violence that happens daily outside of those doors (pointing behind yourself)". I don't know what to say, there's a lot of people who have OCed for far longer than myself. What I do know is that even as a gun toting card carrying member of the NRA, that answer probably would have made me nervous too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    Not to critique you, but I think the "I have a reason ..." was probably more damaging than helpful. Just saying. Seems to me, and this just my opinion, it would have been simple to just say "For protection and safety. We can talk later if you'd like." Just sayin'.
    Having thought this over, I have to agree with you. Thanks for the input.

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Are you wearing a gun?
    I said Yes Sir.
    He said "Why?
    Jesus would OC too and I don't want to get on his bad side.....what's that passage about 'go get a sword'?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamans-gallows View Post
    Having thought this over, I have to agree with you. Thanks for the input.
    At least you didn't giggle maniacally and drum your fingers together when you said it. Wait, you didn't right?

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Whether one chooses to OC, CC, or No-C at church is nobody's business but their own. Nothing wrong with discussing it, so long as we don't try and force our preference on others.

    Whether a church allows or prohibits OC or CC, however, is the church's business, as they're private institutions, even when "owned" by a collective of confirmed members.

    As for me, church is one of the few places I exercise my CHP, for pretty much the same reason as another user stated. In my case, I'd much rather my brother or sister in church be focusing on God than on my firearm.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    .....what's that passage about 'go get a sword'?
    Howdy Amigo!
    The quote in question is from Luke, 22:36

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    It is unclear whether the man suggested they try to get a concealed carry permit for said sword, but he most emphatically urged them to arm up.
    There is little evidence that any of his followers took that advice.

    Most of his disciples spent time in prison. In today's society, that would have disqualified them from getting a permit to carry a handgun.
    Not certain about swords though.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Well, since you have to sell your garment and buy a sword, it appears that you would be dressed in your birthday suit. You would then, by definition, be OCing.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Well, since you have to sell your garment and buy a sword, it appears that you would be dressed in your birthday suit. You would then, by definition, be OCing.
    Now you're gonna get MT started again.....
    One day your life is going to flash before your eyes, make it worth watching.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    NIV says "cloak," not "garment" (KJV).
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  19. #19
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Well, since you have to sell your garment and buy a sword, it appears that you would be dressed in your birthday suit. You would then, by definition, be OCing.
    Howdy Pard!
    Not if you'd gotten a concealed carry permit from the Romans in town. Then you'd be squared away and good to go!
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  20. #20
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PikesPeakMtnMan View Post
    Now you're gonna get MT started again.....
    Howdy Pard!
    Yeah, I really want to be clear about my position; concealed carry is best used at a nudist park or clothing optional beach.
    Or anywhere else in America where one can be free of clothing altogether.
    Oh, wait... there ain't no such places except nudist parks and clothing optional beaches.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    Since you state you "did visit a church while OCing this morning" I'm assuming you weren't a regular there. Given that fact and the amount of tragic church shootings, do you think it was a wise move to OC?

    I personally wouldn't OC in a church until I had been there several times.
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    It seems to me that "tragic church shootings" would be a good reason to OC at church, not a reason to wait.
    I actually agree with both these statements.

    Since you weren't sure about the "policy" of the church before hand; NOR did anyone seem to know you there, (If you were a guest of another member let me know), I do think the smart & prudent choice would have been to CC. (Especially on your first visit)

    Doing this would have allowed you time to learn more about the church; because chances are you were treated more cautiously. Your actions could even cause a negative change in church policy. CCin first would have also allowed you to still remain armed; while doing some more recon.

    There are DEFINITELY good reasons to OC at church! Unfortunately, we can't do that in my state. But, we do have uniformed & plain clothes LEOs during services. But, it's still a good idea to do a little more recon before you OC visiting a new church.

    Please note, Visiting a new church & a strange home are the only places I would suggest doing some recon & CCing first. It has NOTHING to do with fear or PC bs.

    It has everything to do with showing your RESPECT for others!

    -
    Last edited by tcox4freedom; 07-19-2012 at 09:38 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    I actually agree with both these statements.

    Since you weren't sure about the "policy" of the church before hand; NOR did anyone seem to know you there, (If you were a guest of another member let me know), I do think the smart & prudent choice would have been to CC. (Especially on your first visit)

    Doing this would have allowed you time to learn more about the church; because chances are you were treated more cautiously. Your actions could even cause a negative change in church policy. CCin first would have also allowed you to still remain armed; while doing some more recon.

    There are DEFINITELY good reasons to OC at church! Unfortunately, we can't do that in my state. But, we do have uniformed & plain clothes LEOs during services. But, it's still a good idea to do a little more recon before you OC visiting a new church.

    Please note, Visiting a new church & a strange home are the only places I would suggest doing some recon & CCing first. It has NOTHING to do with fear or PC bs.

    It has everything to do with showing your RESPECT for others!

    -
    Where in SECTION 16-23-20 does it state that OC in church is prohibited?

    SECTION 23-31-215 (M)(9) church or other established religious sanctuary unless express permission is given by the appropriate church official or governing body
    Get permission from the preacher.

    I am not arguing your point. It is only prohibited if they say no guns. If they have signage, find another church.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Where in SECTION 16-23-20 does it state that OC in church is prohibited?

    Get permission from the preacher.

    I am not arguing your point. It is only prohibited if they say no guns. If they have signage, find another church.
    Understood, in SC churches do NOT have to have any signage. They fall under the same rules as schools & medical facilities. Any type of carry is prohibited unless you have permission.

    Our church has a school on the property. But, not the sanctuary; just the Sunday School building. So, permission from the pastor wouldn't work anyway. However, there are several lay people and leadership that legally CC. So quietly CCing is no big deal & even the LEOs on duty during our services know this & don't enforce the law. (SC laws are pretty screwed up on some points and even most LEOs realize it.)

    -

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