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Thread: Lexington Police - Open Carrying In The Post Office

  1. #1
    Regular Member Liberty4Ever's Avatar
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    Lexington Police - Open Carrying In The Post Office

    I do a lot of business with the US Post Office. I'm in the Post Office almost every day. It's quite an inconvenience for me to abide by the federal ban on weapons in the post office, 9 C.F.R. § 232.1(l).

    http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/232-1-conduc...perty-19777182

    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
    Friday afternoon, I saw a uniformed Lexington police officer get out of his marked patrol car with a cute little girl that I assume to be his daughter. They entered the main post office on Nandino Road in Lexington, and of course, the police officer was openly carrying a Glock pistol. I certainly wasn't shocked by that. I'd have been surprised if the LEO had secured his weapon off USPS property. But it did cause me to start thinking about the law, and the double standard that results in the selective application of the law.

    IANAL, but the applicability clause certainly seems to indicate that the law applies to everyone, and the LFUCG police are not exempt.

    (a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property.
    I'm aware of Kentucky law that grants special gun rights (so I guess they'd be gun privileges) to active duty and retired police, sheriffs, county attorneys and other privileged classes of people. I don't agree with the entire notion of special privileges for special people so I'm not a fan of such laws, but the discriminatory Kentucky law doesn't supersede federal law.

    I suppose the uniformed police officer may have been construed to be operating under "official purposes" as referenced in the quoted law above, even though it looked like a personal errand after work... unless it was Bring Your Daughter To Work Day. I didn't see any definition for "official purposes" in the federal law and it seems odd that federal law would attempt to distinguish what is and isn't official purpose at the local level. What about a city councilperson? Trash collectors? Code enforcement? Boy Scouts have some very official looking uniforms. State game wardens? County animal control officers? Exactly what do I need to do to be official?

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that police shouldn't be able to carry weapons in the post office. I'm saying that 9 C.F.R. § 232.1(l) is a bad law and we should ALL be able to carry in the post office.

    Should I have effected a citizen's arrest on the offending officer?


    Colorado Lawsuit Against Post Office Gun Ban
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1117098.html

    Louisiana Case Lost By Postal Worker Who Had Gun In His Locked Car On USPS Property
    http://www.ammoland.com/2009/10/21/n...#axzz20ix8Z29a

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    I haven't actually been inside a post office now in a couple of years, but if I need to drop mail off, I just use the outside box. It's legal to carry in the unfenced, unsecured areas of the parking lot.

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty4Ever View Post
    Should I have effected a citizen's arrest on the offending officer?

    You have to think, if I effected an arrest, who is going to prosecute. I know the US Attorney's Office would not. Should not work that way, we should all be on equal footing when we carry, but we are not and I am not sure how to fix the problem. Glad y'all are here to to help figure it out.
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    Don't forget about the special status granted LEO'S by the federal law ( leosa) the employees of we the people are granted more rights than we the people!

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    Regular Member Liberty4Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    I haven't actually been inside a post office now in a couple of years, but if I need to drop mail off, I just use the outside box. It's legal to carry in the unfenced, unsecured areas of the parking lot.
    They changed the outside boxes so they only accept letters and thick envelopes. I have packages. I also mail stuff to Canada sometimes, and that requires a trip inside.

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    Regular Member Liberty4Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Please, let me know what makes you believe that to be true. The HuffPo article cited in the OP states that is not the case. I know that HuffPo is not case law, but I'd just like to know what you rely on to allow carry on any Postal Service property. I've never seen anything that says that.
    I've read conflicting information. The wording of the law itself (see link in my original post) seems to say that ALL property other than a common sidewalk in front of a post office is included and I've read the customer parking lot is included in other written info as well, but I've also read that the public parking lot is NOT included, but the secure parking area is included. The Louisiana case that was described in the link I provided earlier seemed to make this distinction between the public parking area and the secured area where some of the employees apparently park, and that secure area was used as the legal justification for the ban, based on the Heller decision that specifically did not apply to gun bans in various secure areas.

    It's very confusing, and I think it's another example of a law that's selectively enforced. I hate those. Most people would probably be OK if they locked a pistol in their car before entering a post office, but if they wanted to make a federal case of it (literally), it's probably illegal and like most gun laws it's a very serious offense, even though it seems like a trifling thing.

    At the Nandino Road post office here in Lexington, there is a very clear demarcation between the public parking area and the fenced secure area. The secure area has a lot of very serious looking official signs.
    Last edited by Liberty4Ever; 07-15-2012 at 06:47 PM.

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    Regular Member pfries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Please, let me know what makes you believe that to be true. The HuffPo article cited in the OP states that is not the case. I know that HuffPo is not case law, but I'd just like to know what you rely on to allow carry on any Postal Service property. I've never seen anything that says that. In fact, here is the first line of 9 C. F. R. Para. 232.1:
    (a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property.
    This is why I use the post office in the strip mall and do not park in fron of the actual post office, I always make it a point to leave my holster on and put my sidearm in my "toss around" holster prior to putting it in my gun safe.

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    I am assuming Postal inspectors are licensed to carry in post offices.

    http://criminaljusticeonlineblog.com...pector-career/


    "Postal Inspectors are federal law enforcement agents who are armed and authorized to make arrests. They serve subpoenas, execute search warrants, restrain suspects, and provide testimony when needed."

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    Regular Member Liberty4Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    More than likely nothing will happen, but knowing you as I do, I doubt that will stop you from doing it, anyway.
    I tilt at a lot of windmills, but I can't tilt at ALL windmills. I'm not inclined to make a big stink over this issue. Yeah, it does bug me that all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others, but I don't see me having any time to try to change this federal law or the unequal enforcement of this federal law.

    Besides... I have bigger fish to fry with the LFUCG and gun rights. I'm trying to pick my battles based on what I can win.

    Mostly, I was posting this to maybe get people thinking about things that most people take for granted, and maybe generate some thought provoking discussion with the potential to break people out of some of the status quo assumptions.

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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...highlight=usps

    Section 232.1(1) bans the storage or possession of weapons (concealed or otherwise) in an
    enclosed postal parking lot, whereas 18 U.S.C. § 930(a) bans simple possession of a firearm in a
    federal facility/building provided the requisite notice is posted as described in § 930(h).


    http://volokh.com/files/dorosan.pdf


    The ban at issue does not affect the right of all individuals to bear arms at home or
    traveling in a vehicle to and from work through high crime areas. Its reach does not extend
    beyond the noticed, gated confines of United States Postal Services’ property. It is narrowly
    tailored to effect public and workplace safety solely on postal property consistent with the
    Property and Postal Clauses. Similarly, 18 U.S.C. § 930(a) criminalizes knowing possession of
    dangerous weapons, but only within the confines of a federal facility/building.
    Regulations forbidding the possession or carrying of firearms “in sensitive places” such as federal and/or
    postal property abound; these longstanding prohibitions have been upheld.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Liberty4Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I did not mean to imply that you "tilt at windmills", but that you are a constant and relentless thorn in the side of the "powers that be".
    Nah. I definitely do tilt at windmills. :-) I usually can't help myself.

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    Talk to the postmaster .. if he is unwilling to enforce the law, then talk to his boss. Just say an "non-exempt" person had a gun, no need to speak to his policeman status if it is not relevant. Plus, you don't know if he is a policeman or not, you did not see his ID card, right?

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    Red face Really

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Don't forget about the special status granted LEO'S by the federal law ( leosa) the employees of we the people are granted more rights than we the people!
    Sometimes cops have to deal with the likes of you all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hahah View Post
    Sometimes cops have to deal with the likes of you all.
    Sincerely hope you are attempting to be funny. although there is no evidence of that. Otherwise, you have just insulted the entire forum.

    What is your intent?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-02-2012 at 01:34 AM.
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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Should I be afraid that I'm not insulted by that?

    Ya know, if I had the connections and corrupt ties, I'd weasel my way into a Constabulary appointment, for the cheap peace officer status, just so I could do what I've seen the Bath Co Sheriff do countless times at the Post office. Walk in carrying out of uniform with a a couple brown boxes like nothings going on. I wanna be a LEO so I can be "more equal than others".
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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hahah View Post
    Sometimes cops have to deal with the likes of you all.
    Troll??? Anti??? Idiot??? All of the above??? Whats your game "hahah"?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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