All Those What Ifs: What if the police come a knockin early am and don't identify?

Jack House · Jul 17, 2012

Andrew Lee Scott could tell you what happens when the police beat on your door in the early morning hours with out identifying themselves. Well, he could if he was still alive.

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-fl...oor/-/11788162/15527202/-/euk6tg/-/index.html

"It's just a bizarre set of circumstances. The bottom line is, you point a gun at a deputy sheriff or police office, you're going to get shot," [Lt. John] Herrell said.

I'm assuming this Lt. Herrell is an officer with some department. His words makes it sound like a gang. "Be prepared to get dead if you do somethin we don't like."

There's also that old cliche, 'resistance is futile.'~

I could sympathize with their "we thought he was a murderer and he was pointing a gun at us!" if wrong addresses weren't so damned common and they actually identified themselves. When someone comes aknockin at my door at inappropriate times, I always answer armed. Either gun in hand, or hidden on my person. Usually in hand, though hidden behind my back.

My aunt got quite the scare back on July 4th, when I thought my entire family was at family friend's house for a party. That was the day I ended up in the emergency room severely dehydrated and diagnosed with pneumonia. Which is why I was home. My aunt lives next door, and I knew my cousin was at the party. So I thought she was too. I sent my mother a message asking when she'd be home because I had gotten really sick. I guess what happened was that she took too long to respond and I ended up going to bed, then I didn't respond when she did. So she called my aunt to check on me. I heard someone enter my house, called out demanding they identify and got no response. So I quickly grabbed my gun and loaded it. She 'bout nearly had a heart attack when she turned the corner and saw me holding my handgun. :lol:

OC for ME · Jul 17, 2012

Sheriff confirms that his deputies did not ID themselves......cha-ching!

Brion · Jul 17, 2012

I have no kidding wondered the same thing and try to play out scenarios is my head. Really and truly alot of people don't prepare for such a situation. You have to have a plan and a contengency plan to that plan. If a similar situation took place I wouldn't even open the door. That's why most have a peep hole. I'd first ask "Who's there?" and ask what they want. If I do open the door it's only going to be 'nuff to look out the door and ask what they want. If it's police, don't step out of the house. If they are on official business then there had better be a warrant. If it escalates anywhere past that, well, I'm prepared to take the proper action from that point on.

hjmoosejaw · Jul 17, 2012

Being that they didn't surround the place, and just knocking at the door, kind of shows they weren't sure of where exactly the BG was. A more narrowed down canvassing job, if you will.

LkWd_Don · Jul 17, 2012

The Police in this case were just plain wrong! The SCOTUS has already upheld the right of Citizens to to be armed in the place they reside (their homes) and knowing that, Police should be held to a much higher standard of restraint when approaching any residence.
First off the victim looks nothing like the suspect John Brown that they were looking for. That alone should get an itchy trigger fingered Police Officer thrown off the force or at least put behind a desk till he learns to identify the difference between people.
Excuse me? Did I hear that right, a comment by a spokesperson for Lake County, Fl. Sheriff Gary S. Borders, said that they stand behind the Officers decision to fire!
Other news articles relating:
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/soci...ice-shoot-and-kill-wrong-man-andrew-lee-scott
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/report-florida-deputies-shoot-kill-andrew-lee-scott

Lt John Herrell said:
He said in the article if someone points a gun at a deputy sheriff or police officer, that person is going to get shot.

The whole Department needs massive re-training!
I cannot believe that according to their website https://www.lcso.org/ , they show that their core values are:

CORE VALUES
Integrity, Professionalism, People, Leadership, Loyalty, Commitment, Community, Accountability

It is clear to me that they know nothing about Integrity, Professionalism, People, Community or Accountability even though their explanation of those are:

Lake County Sheriffs said:
Integrity: We value the quality of possessing and steadfastly adhering to high moral principles and professional standards. Integrity implies honesty, truthfulness, honor, veracity and reliability.

Professionalism: We value the skill and competence exhibited by a highly trained professional, characterized by pride, self-discipline, a thirst for higher education, and a customer service oriented approach.

People: We value all people. Our relationships with others should be respectful and fair. By valuing people, we also value diversity, the spirit of teamwork, and open and honest communication. We believe people are our most valuable resource.

Leadership: We value leadership as the ability to guide, direct, and influence people toward the proper course of action. Leadership implies the ability to provide purpose and motivation. Even those who do not serve in a formal leadership role can lead by example.

Loyalty: We value loyalty as an unfailing devotion to a cause despite our personal likes, dislikes, hopes and desires. Loyalty implies faithfulness, devotion, allegiance, trustworthiness, and fidelity so that a common cause might prevail.

Commitment: We value commitment to the mission of the Sheriff's Office. Commitment is the sense of responsibility to the people we serve, the law enforcement profession and the oath of our office. Commitment is kindred to loyalty and is exemplified by courage, dedication, and persistence.

Community: We value our community and believe to be effective we must be a part of those we serve. We support efforts to enhance the quality of life in Lake County by encouraging community involvement, believing it to be a responsibility of citizenship.

Accountability: We value individual and collective responsibility for our mission and core values. We believe it is our duty to be answerable for our actions both internally and externally. Accountability is achieved through relentless follow-up.

MKEgal · Jul 17, 2012

Brion said:
If a similar situation took place I wouldn't even open the door. That's why most have a peep hole. I'd first ask "Who's there?" and ask what they want.

Need to get a peephole installed in my front door. Failing that, I look out the window, which can show if there's a marked vehicle out front. Worst case, call the across-the-street neighbor & ask him who's pounding on my door in the middle of the night. He can call the cops too.

papa bear · Jul 17, 2012

didn't ID themselves because they didn't want anyone to know! What kind of BS is that

i don't buy the thing that he was pointing at them either. if he was he would have got off a shot. there is a lot of time from the front to the end

Jack House · Jul 17, 2012

papa bear said:
didn't ID themselves because they didn't want anyone to know! What kind of BS is that

i don't buy the thing that he was pointing at them either. if he was he would have got off a shot. there is a lot of time from the front to the end

I don't buy that he was pointing his gun at them either. Buuut, there's the possibility that they already had their guns drawn and aimed at the door. Then there is also the fact, that if he did have his gun aimed at the officers, but didn't know it was officers, he could have been in shock. It doesn't take long for someone that has been trained to pull and fire their side arm.

I still don't think he was pointing the gun at them though. For those of you that open their door armed, how many of you do so while pointing the gun at your visitor?

MKEgal said:
Need to get a peephole installed in my front door. Failing that, I look out the window, which can show if there's a marked vehicle out front. Worst case, call the across-the-street neighbor & ask him who's pounding on my door in the middle of the night. He can call the cops too.

I have one, but it's completely useless at night. And from my front door window, I can't see the street, nor can I see who is standing at the door.

LkWd_Don said:
Excuse me? Did I hear that right, a comment by a spokesperson for Lake County, Fl. Sheriff Gary S. Borders, said that they stand behind the Officers decision to fire!

This sounds like sarcasm, but not sure. So I'll just say this, my issue isn't with them standing behind the deputies decision to fire, that's expected. My issue is with the words he said, it is very much something you would expect from a criminal street gang.

Brion said:
I have no kidding wondered the same thing and try to play out scenarios is my head. Really and truly alot of people don't prepare for such a situation. You have to have a plan and a contengency plan to that plan. If a similar situation took place I wouldn't even open the door. That's why most have a peep hole. I'd first ask "Who's there?" and ask what they want. If I do open the door it's only going to be 'nuff to look out the door and ask what they want. If it's police, don't step out of the house. If they are on official business then there had better be a warrant. If it escalates anywhere past that, well, I'm prepared to take the proper action from that point on.

This is why I keep my gun hidden when I answer the door, unless I know who it is and want them to see me holding a gun. This way, if it's an officer at the door, I can at least hopefully avoid getting shot.

LkWd_Don · Jul 17, 2012

Jack House said:
I don't buy that he was pointing his gun at them either. Buuut, there's the possibility that they already had their guns drawn and aimed at the door. Then there is also the fact, that if he did have his gun aimed at the officers, but didn't know it was officers, he could have been in shock. It doesn't take long for someone that has been trained to pull and fire their side arm.

I am quite sure that those who were next to the door had pistols drawn while they knocked and those in the background had their rifles up, aimed and ready to shoot.

Jack House said:
I still don't think he was pointing the gun at them though. For those of you that open their door armed, how many of you do so while pointing the gun at your visitor?

I have one, but it's completely useless at night. And from my front door window, I can't see the street, nor can I see who is standing at the door.

This sounds like sarcasm, but not sure. So I'll just say this, my issue isn't with them standing behind the deputies decision to fire, that's expected. My issue is with the words he said, it is very much something you would expect from a criminal street gang.

My statement was that I did not believe I had heard a comment by a spokesperson for Lake County, Fl. Sheriff Gary S. Borders, said that they stand behind the Officers decision to fire! I went back and listened to the posted report and a couple other video's posted on the net.. That is in fact what was said.

Jack House said:
This is why I keep my gun hidden when I answer the door, unless I know who it is and want them to see me holding a gun. This way, if it's an officer at the door, I can at least hopefully avoid getting shot.

I don't think that would have helped in this case. I fully believe that some rookie with an itchy trigger finger simply fired when the guy was fully framed in the door way and the Department is playing it off the same way the Seattle Police Department is trying to play off all of their abusiveness and not enact the procedures that the FBI has said they need.
Part of why I feel that most Police (if not all) need to have audio/video camera's affixed to their uniform and running constantly, so that they have to abide by their rules of conduct or be outed by their own uniform camera.

Steeler-gal · Jul 17, 2012

Isn't this why Indiana recently passed the law allowing citizens to fire on police in self defense?

http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Indiana-law-lets-citizens-shoot-at-police-3612347.php

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WalkingWolf · Jul 18, 2012

Looking through a peephole in the middle of the night is a good way to get knocked on your backside, or even maybe shot. If police are going to go playing Rambo in the middle of the night they better be darned sure to have their ducks in a row. There is no excuse for this, manslaughter plain and clear. If somebody is trying to beat down my door and they do not ID themselves they are getting 12 gauge slugs for breakfast, through the door. Most times suspects can be arrested safely during the day, this carp needs to stop. Where the heck is Obama and the DOJ?

since9 · Jul 19, 2012

papa bear said:
didn't ID themselves because they didn't want anyone to know! What kind of BS is that

i don't buy the thing that he was pointing at them either. if he was he would have got off a shot. there is a lot of time from the front to the end

Yeah, I don't buy it either. About 99.99% of us know NOT to do that, particularly at LEOs. I don't doubt he was holding a firearm, but again, that is NOT a crime in your own home.

Bottom line: This meets all the criteria for manslaughter.

All Those What Ifs: What if the police come a knockin early am and don't identify?

Jack House

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OC for ME

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Brion

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hjmoosejaw

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LkWd_Don

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papa bear

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Steeler-gal

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