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Thread: Deputies got to wrong address, shoot resident

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    Regular Member paramedic's Avatar
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    Deputies got to wrong address, shoot resident

    Lake county deputies were serving a warrant for attempted murder, they went to the wrong address, kicked in the door, the resident while defending to himself from unknown intruders, the deputies shoot and kill him. Can not wait to see how this one plays out.

    http://www.policeone.com/news/582734...on-wrong-door/

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    It's OK...Boys will be Boys. Novacop will jump in here and confirm that.

    That's no worse than the Henrico cop that shot the family dog while telling the parents their son had been murdered.
    I won't print my comments about that.
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-17-2012 at 02:13 PM.

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    already threads on this ...

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    maybe they were just practicing for the big UN gun grab. Murder is murder, with or without the badge.

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    This is just wrong on the counties part. The police were totally in the wrong here.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    This is a perfect instantiation of what has transpired the past few months in Indiana. Court ruled that a citizen has no right to resist the unlawful home invasion by LEOs, so the legislature quickly overruled the court by updating the law, much to the outrage of the LEO community, who apparently think they should be able to mistakenly murder anyone they want to.

    This happened in Florida, so whole different set of rules.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic View Post
    Lake county deputies were serving a warrant for attempted murder, they went to the wrong address, kicked in the door, the resident while defending to himself from unknown intruders, the deputies shoot and kill him. Can not wait to see how this one plays out.

    http://www.policeone.com/news/582734...on-wrong-door/
    Where do you get that the police kicked in the door? There is nothing about kicking in the door written at the link here or in any of the other stories I've read about the same incident. The resident made the fool move to answer a door not just with a gun in his hand (possibly prudent), but pointing at the person on the other side of the door, which just happened to be police officers who happened to be at the wrong home, and who also have a right to defend themselves against threat of attack, and were ready to do so. It makes no difference whether the person on the other side of the door was a cop or a litte old lady whose car broke down in the middle of the night who knocked on the door looking for help, the resident was not under attack and he started from a position of security. Had the resident had a little more sense by perhaps looking out the windows to see who was at the door or by asking through the door who was there rather than just opening up the door and pointing the gun at whoever was standing there, the situation very likely would have never occurred. The cops would've figured out they were at the wrong place and would not have had to defend themselves.

    I absolutely abhor police misbehavior, but knocking on someone's door at night is not an act of aggression that necessitates a deadly response. The article indicates that the police shot the wrong man, but I'd dare say that is not at all true. They shot the man who confronted them with a firearm aimed at them, apparently with the will to use it and they did exactly what any person under attack has a right to do.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 07-17-2012 at 04:12 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Where do you get that the police kicked in the door? There is nothing about kicking in the door written at the link here or in any of the other stories I've read about the same incident. The resident made the fool move to answer a door not just with a gun in his hand (possibly prudent), but pointing at the person on the other side of the door, which just happened to be police officers who happened to be at the wrong home, and who also have a right to defend themselves against threat of attack, and were ready to do so. It makes no difference whether the person on the other side of the door was a cop or a litte old lady whose car broke down in the middle of the night who knocked on the door looking for help, the resident was not under attack and he started from a position of security. Had the resident had a little more sense by perhaps looking out the windows to see who was at the door or by asking through the door who was there rather than just opening up the door and pointing the gun at whoever was standing there, the situation very likely would have never occurred. The cops would've figured out they were at the wrong place and would not have had to defend themselves.

    I absolutely abhor police misbehavior, but knocking on someone's door at night is not an act of aggression that necessitates a deadly response. The article indicates that the police shot the wrong man, but I'd dare say that is not at all true. They shot the man who confronted them with a firearm aimed at them, apparently with the will to use it and they did exactly what any person under attack has a right to do.
    Just to point out one hole in your presentation... I'm not aware of any law that requires a citizen to look out the door before opening it. If a citizen opens a door and sees a gun in his face, I would submit that the citizen was under attack first, not the other way around.

    I don't know what happened here any more than anyone else, but it certainly bears watching.

    TFred

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    If the resident had peered through the window and observed firearms already pointed in his direction by people who were clearly identified as police (there's nothing to say they were pointing at him or that they were clearly identifiable as police) it would behoove him to find out why they are there before opening a door and pointing a gun at them. That's just stupid, even if the police are in the wrong.

    If the resident had peered through the window and saw random people standing on his porch already pointing guns at him, his decision to open the door was tactically stupid as well, whether he had a gun or not. The occupants of the porch, however, had not begun to beat down any door, and had only knocked on the door much like any person would do to rouse a person inside. If the people were not pointing guns at him already, he still had no reason to point a gun at them.

    Florida’s justifiable use of force (Statute 776.012) indicates that…
    A person is justified in using deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to 776.013.

    776.013 “Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm”, A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    A: the person against whom defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, etc. and;
    B: the person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

    We can stop at just this point, because neither statute applies to this man’s use of force as 776.012 doesn’t apply (he was within his dwelling) and 776.013 doesn’t apply because an unlawful AND forceful entering had not occurred and was not occurring. By Florida law the resident is obliged to determine that an unlawful and forcible entry had either already occurred or was in the process of occurring.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 07-17-2012 at 04:50 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    If the resident had peered through the window and observed firearms already pointed in his direction by people who were clearly identified as police (there's nothing to say they were pointing at him or that they were clearly identifiable as police) it would behoove him to find out why they are there before opening a door and pointing a gun at them. That's just stupid, even if the police are in the wrong.

    If the resident had peered through the window and saw random people standing on his porch already pointing guns at him, his decision to open the door was tactically stupid as well, whether he had a gun or not. The occupants of the porch, however, had not begun to beat down any door, and had only knocked on the door much like any person would do to rouse a person inside. If the people were not pointing guns at him already, he still had no reason to point a gun at them.

    Florida’s justifiable use of force (Statute 776.012) indicates that…
    A person is justified in using deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to 776.013.

    776.013 “Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm”, A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    A: the person against whom defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, etc. and;
    B: the person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

    We can stop at just this point, because neither statute applies to this man’s use of force as 776.012 doesn’t apply (he was within his dwelling) and 776.013 doesn’t apply because an unlawful AND forceful entering had not occurred and was not occurring. By Florida law the resident is obliged to determine that an unlawful and forcible entry had either already occurred or was in the process of occurring.
    Assuming a person who opened a door to find several guns in their face would not invite the gentlemen into the house, do you really believe that as soon as that door was opened, those LEOs did not advance, but instead stood there flat footed, waiting to be invited in? If the deceased did not invite them in, then as soon as they cross the threshold of the door, they were unlawfully entering the house, unless they were serving a warrant or had exigent circumstances, etc.

    These are all details we can never know but for the recounting of someone who will tell us what they want us to hear. But at the same time, you cannot assume that your dismissal of application of the above statutes is justified either.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Where do you get that the police kicked in the door? There is nothing about kicking in the door written at the link here or in any of the other stories I've read about the same incident. The resident made the fool move to answer a door not just with a gun in his hand (possibly prudent), but pointing at the person on the other side of the door, which just happened to be police officers who happened to be at the wrong home, and who also have a right to defend themselves against threat of attack, and were ready to do so. It makes no difference whether the person on the other side of the door was a cop or a litte old lady whose car broke down in the middle of the night who knocked on the door looking for help, the resident was not under attack and he started from a position of security. Had the resident had a little more sense by perhaps looking out the windows to see who was at the door or by asking through the door who was there rather than just opening up the door and pointing the gun at whoever was standing there, the situation very likely would have never occurred. The cops would've figured out they were at the wrong place and would not have had to defend themselves.

    I absolutely abhor police misbehavior, but knocking on someone's door at night is not an act of aggression that necessitates a deadly response. The article indicates that the police shot the wrong man, but I'd dare say that is not at all true. They shot the man who confronted them with a firearm aimed at them, apparently with the will to use it and they did exactly what any person under attack has a right to do.

    If you watch the video close enough there is damage to the door. I also do not believe for one second that they walked up to the door, and just casually knocked on it. It is also stated that they did not identify themselves as Law Enforcement. I know I have mentioned this is the past, as some may be getting tired of hearing it, but as a former LEO in FL, I can tell you that you are required to announce that you are law enforcement if your purpose is to perform a law enforcement role such as serving an arrest warrant. And I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if someone enters my home without being invited in. someone is getting carried out.

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    "Fla. deputies shoot, kill 'wrong' suspect."

    Okay, let me get this straight. The guy who got murdered by the popo was a suspect in another case, but not the suspect in the case they were trying to make an arrest in. The wording makes it sound like the guy was already guilty of something.

    They should have said "Fla. deputies kill innocent man while looking for suspect."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Where do you get that the police kicked in the door? There is nothing about kicking in the door written at the link here or in any of the other stories I've read about the same incident. The resident made the fool move to answer a door not just with a gun in his hand (possibly prudent), but pointing at the person on the other side of the door, which just happened to be police officers who happened to be at the wrong home, and who also have a right to defend themselves against threat of attack, and were ready to do so.
    Point of order!

    He was only allegedly pointing the gun at the police officers. The only evidence that we have indicating that he may have pointed the gun at anyone is the word of the officers who shot him. As they have a self-interest in making it seem like a "clean shoot" (to avoid punishment or even legal charges), and we can't get the resident's side of the story, we cannot definitively say that he actually pointed the gun at the police.

    It's also possible that the police saw the gun in hand and reacted without it being pointed at them. We simply don't know what really happened. All we know is what the shooters have alleged happened.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Maybe a no knock warrant, who knows.
    Could argue the situation until people turn blue but whats the point.
    Each person will act as they think fits the situation.
    Just need more states to pass laws that strip protection from the police for 'whoops our bad, kicked in the wrong door and killed the owner. Sorry wont happen again' type of actions.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Deputies alive, citizen dead, deputies story goes unchallenged. The dead citizen is at fault, prove the opposite.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Deputies alive, citizen dead, deputies' story goes unchallenged. The dead citizen is at fault, prove the opposite.
    ^^^ This.
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    WTF is this doing in the VIRGINIA forum???

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    WTF is this doing in the VIRGINIA forum???

    Roscoe
    I didn't ask.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    WTF is this doing in the VIRGINIA forum???

    Roscoe
    This is not the first thread in the Virginia forum that does not directly involve Virginia. I believe that no matter what state an incident like this happens in, it is pertinent to all of us and our fight to maintain 2A rights.

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    [QUOTE=jmelvin;1789500]If the resident had peered through the window and observed firearms already pointed in his direction by people who were clearly identified as police (there's nothing to say they were pointing at him or that they were clearly identifiable as police) it would behoove him to find out why they are there before opening a door and pointing a gun at them. That's just stupid, even if the police are in the wrong.

    If the resident had peered through the window and saw random people standing on his porch already pointing guns at him, his decision to open the door was tactically stupid as well, whether he had a gun or not. The occupants of the porch, however, had not begun to beat down any door, and had only knocked on the door much like any person would do to rouse a person inside. If the people were not pointing guns at him already, he still had no reason to point a gun at them. quote


    he JMELVIN
    GRYLNSMN beat me to it. we really don't know if he pointed the gun at the LEO. we only have their word for it. nor do we know if it was forced entry. by the lack of what the LEO's are saying. maybe if we have the official reports of this incident we can know more
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    'Official' report(s).....too funny.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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