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Yance

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
568
Location
Battle Creek, MI
Quick point, non sided I hope, isn't creating a "paid members" area kind of counter productive to the concept of disseminating information? If you don't pay you are excluded from some discussions that may be informative. I can understand "Members Only" areas to discuss organization policies and such, that makes sense. I guess I would be better able to see if I would want to join or not if I had a better idea of what the "Members Only" area offered. Perhaps a one or two week "Open House" making all areas open so people could see the difference might be better advertising. Just my 2 cents worth, back to lurking mode.

ETA: I also saw the business perks, but sadly none are really in my area.

Pretty much, thats it. Its about 4 or 5 sub forum areas that are accessed by paying members, otherwise I'd say 90% of the MOC forum can be accessed by having a forum member membership.

But, as with other organizations, as a paying member you get a vote in the organizations business and when electing leadership personel.
 

detroit_fan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
Monroe, Michigan, USA
Our member's only area has 3 sub-forums:

Announcements
Members Lounge
Member Feedback


There are about a half dozen forums that are open for public viewing (people not logged in). There's another half dozen areas that are visible once you log in (even if you aren't a dues paying member). 90% of the conversation on that Forum happens in publicly accessible areas.

I don't think that's unreasonable, but what type of Announcements are paid members only? Are those announcements about upcoming events and activities, or something else?

ETA- I think Ezerharden's suggestion about a "open house" type thing may be a good idea. Kinda like HBO does every few months to show you what you are missing by not subscribing.
 
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G22

Regular Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
74
Location
Michigan, USA
For the record, MGO also has a member's only area of their Forum.

They also have other Forum perks that only dues paying members get.

Members only forums are needed to conduct members only business. Certain things like ballots, meeting minutes and such that only members can use are posted there. Each committee has its own private sub forum that only those committee members can see, to conduct their business discussions (bylaws) (election) (BoD) etc... There is a forum where you can "Ask the BoD" questions, A general business forum, a forum for member suggestions... It's not the most exciting place on MGO but it does serve a purpose.

I can't comment on what is in the MOC members only forum so I won't. I will say that any organization needs a place for private member discussion, and you either want to participate in it, or you don't. Simple really.
 

Yance

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
568
Location
Battle Creek, MI
So in all reality the non paying forum members really arent missing out on much as far as forum content goes. But, as with any non profit org, dues from paying members helps run the organization and allows MOC to fight for firearm rights in things such as the CADL case and the hammaneggs case against Warren PD. MOC has been trying to do a lot lately for gun rights, not just open carry and as an organization they are beginning to get recognized by law makers and by the news media as a legitimate gun rights group and with the help of dues paying members and those who provide other donations they will be able to continue to grow, hopefully into a well recognized gun organization within the state.
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
I've found great value in MOC's forums, as well as others. Yes, I'm a member, but there was quite a period where I just lurked.

I've found that having several sources of information help 'calibrate' what is fact / law, and what's just someone's opinion. I don't see where its existence has fractured gun owners influence; in fact, I believe belonging to multiple organizations engaged in the same struggle is a force multiplier. Think of it- if the same thousand belong to four organizations looks like four thousand to the politicians & media.

Its a bit like religious denominations- everybody gets hung up on the 2% that they differ on, and ignore the 98% that they agree on.

Lets stop posting negativity about the 2%, and start pulling together.

If we don't hang together, by Heavens we shall hang separately. (Benjamin Franklin, et al)
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
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Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
Paying in general to gain access to information that you could research a bit and find, is a bit dumb.

The value is not in the information, it is in the support of the cause. What little is contained in the member's only section is internal business, pertaining only to the membership. Just like any other forum, this one included.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
FWIW to all the MOC/MOC Forum detractors, don't like our Forum? Fine, don't use it. The purpose of my OP was to let people who aren't aware of our Forums know they exist. That's all.

The reason why I helped found MOC was to create an organizational structure which could better disseminate information. Creating a forum which only paid members can see is fine, a good idea even. But a paid forum which requires a reoccurring dues payment to access, well that wasn't in the scope of interests of anyone I knew when MOC got off the ground. The entire reason why I specifically wanted the forum to be started, and indeed pushed for it hard, was because there weren't any controls over this forum, because for quite a while mike and john were the only mods on OCDO. It made this place into a mess.

Something I have believed from the beginning, is that regardless of what happens elsewhere, OCDO's state specific forums can be relied on as a fall back point in the case of failure, or other issues involving organizations which spring up as a result of OCDO. This is a place to come to check facts, and get details straight when all else fails.

I had thought about raising the point of my concerns when I noticed my account had been neutered, and instead decided at the time to just leave it be, and say nothing. Being as you brought the issue here, to the place I consider the fail safe where truth is paramount, I find it important to clarify my take on the subject. Is it a small concern? Maybe, but it's still a line in the sand for me.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
It wasnt contextual, it was a general statement.

ETA I too pushed hard for the success of MOC. I kept referring people there, posting links, going on the forums. Then I was the first to get banned, and that, over politics and personal biases more than, what's the word...Antics, yeah, thats it. That, is one reason I am thew way that I am.
 
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TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
The MOC bylaws (the original ones) required an annual payment of dues. I didn't write those bylaws. I wasn't even around...but apparently you as one of the founders were:eek::uhoh:

For what it's worth to anyone, shortly after I became President I personally paid my dues up through the end of my term.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
The MOC bylaws (the original ones) required an annual payment of dues.

Just like most other organizations. And I find that to be a good idea! As I've said, I have no problems with donating to MOC regularly, including now, for those issues which are important. I encourage everyone to donate to gun rights organizations which are working for their rights. Though scarred by some trouble, MOC has a history of doing some great work.

In case I was confusing, my apologies, allow me to be more clear. The issue I have, is with a forum that shuts people out after they've paid once. The payment, in terms of a forum, should be for verifying that the person is serious about the issue at hand. Having a closed forum without reoccurring payment, well that's an incentive to get people donating, and it blocks the free flow of sometimes important information. If someones membership lapsed due to them being away, as with me, or perhaps because of economic hardship, the flow of incoming or outgoing information should not be denied them. Especially for a non profit org. I don't care who's fault that is, at what juncture MOC started this, it's wrong, end of story.

You said you wanted suggestions, and in case I'm not being clear enough with my inferences, please make it a one time paid and good to go forever system for the forum, but keep every other benefit of membership dependent on dues payment. Solely internal issues, such as voting, can be taken care of via email, and do not require forum use.
 
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Yance

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
568
Location
Battle Creek, MI
Michigander you make it sound as though by not having access to the members section, which Q pointed out what the paying members can view, a person would then miss out on anything and everything that is going on and with discussions that are taking place and thats just not true. There has to be some incentive for paying members, such as paying member areas, otherwise what intices people to join, outside of fighting for the cause?

But youre making it sound as though if someones membership lapses they then have absolutely no access to the forum, again thats completely untrue. Not having access to the paying members 4 sub forums a person isnt out much at all, outside of of updates regarding what is going on within the organization.
 

griffin

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
871
Location
Okemos, MI
As a relatively new MOC member (almost 1 year) and OCer (almost 1 year) I (almost) don't feel qualified to comment, but I will anyway.

There are good comments in this thread, but some disturbing comments as well, including WARCHILD's comment. I also know about some things not included in these comments, which I do not agree with but have been told I don't have enough history to have an informed opinion.

But what I will say is this. I support the rights of gun owners. I support OC. I think MOC is invaluable to the OC community as well as the firearms community as a whole, and I think Mr. Hoffmeister (did I spell that correctly?) has been an exemplary president working tirelessly for the rights of all Michigan gun owners, not just OCers. I have been (and am) in leadership positions. I know how much work it takes to be a good leader, especially in a position like this where you don't get compensated for your work, much less receive the recognition you deserve for all your efforts and out of pocket expenses and even time away from home and your family. I'm sure there are many times Phil would rather be at home with his wife at night or on a weekend, but he is out doing MOC business, whether it be a meeting or an OC public awareness event. Or even during the day when he might take time off work to attend a legislative hearing or meet with our congresscritters.

No organization, including MOC, is above constructive criticism, but I would caution all of my new friends here to really tread lightly. We do not want to be a house divided.

For my part, this is what I will do. For those who are on the fence about joining MOC, or for those who cannot afford it, simply PM me and I will pay for your one year membership. I will give your info to MOC and PayPal the money to them within 24 hours.

My hope is this will be a win-win for all involved. MOC gets money to fund advocacy cases/events, new or returning members can be members again, and maybe feelings can be assuaged (well, maybe not right away). I would also hope that MOC would accept membership from any who wish to join or rejoin.

That is my promise to MOC and the MI firearms community.

Btw, I have no affiliation with MOC other than being a member, and do not personally know the president or any other board member. Phil couldn't pick me out of a lineup.
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I think Mr. Hoffmeister (did I spell that correctly?)
....
Phil couldn't pick me out of a lineup.

1. It's Hofmeister
2. Mr Hofmeister, my father, was at the Picnic this weekend. I'm sorry you didn't get to meet him :(
3. I could too, you sat next to me at Aldacos. You have the FiVe-SeVeN! w00t!
 
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griffin

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
871
Location
Okemos, MI
Mr Hofmeister, my father, was at the Picnic this weekend. I'm sorry you didn't get to meet him :(
I would have liked to have been there, but you chose an unfortunate day for me. There aren't many things I try to structure my life around, but this is one of them.

http://salineceltic.org/

I could too, you sat next to me at Aldacos. You have the FiVe-SeVeN! w00t!
Yes, I did. Or at least one chair away from you. :)
 
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