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Thread: Police shoot armed man who trying to defend hisself

  1. #1
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    Police shoot armed man who trying to defend hisself

    http://news.yahoo.com/video/deputies...163819466.html

    Story is kinda confusing. Seems the person who was shot by police was defending hisself.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    He wasn't defending himself, he was trying to protect himself. The deputies knocked on his door at 1:30am, he had no idea who it was. So he answered the door armed, like most of us would have.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    So how many people are of the "don't answer the door, hope they go away" camp when faced with a similar situation?
    And how many would look out the peephole or a window?
    How many would shout through the door to find out who was there? (And if you're convinced they're cops, do you open the door anyway?)
    And how many would actually open the door (without looking or asking first)?

    The couple times I've been woken by someone at my door, I've looked out an upstairs window & asked "who is it?", which makes them walk around from the front of the house to the side & I can see who it is. I can talk to them right there, or I could get dressed (including pistol) & go closer.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 07-17-2012 at 05:28 PM.

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    I would have to agree.
    I see it as flat out manslaughter.
    Not murder, it wasn't their intention, but their bad judgment took a soul that can't be replaced.

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    This is one of my only fears. Even tho I live in a fairly new subdivision free of crime and ne'er do wells, I always fear a mistake happening.

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    I've wondered what would happen if police executed a search warrant on an incorrect address, busted into a home, and were shot/killed by a terrified homeowner who thought someone was breaking in.

    The homeowner would be acting within his rights and, assuming he wasn't in turn shot to death, would he reasonably be charged?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    So how many people are of the "don't answer the door, hope they go away" camp when faced with a similar situation?
    And how many would look out the peephole or a window?
    How many would shout through the door to find out who was there? (And if you're convinced they're cops, do you open the door anyway?)
    And how many would actually open the door (without looking or asking first)?

    The couple times I've been woken by someone at my door, I've looked out an upstairs window & asked "who is it?", which makes them walk around from the front of the house to the side & I can see who it is. I can talk to them right there, or I could get dressed (including pistol) & go closer.
    I look out the window, but doesn't usually do much good. Sometimes I'll ask, sometimes I'll just answer the door. I always have my gun either on me or in my hand behind my back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    I look out the window, but doesn't usually do much good. Sometimes I'll ask, sometimes I'll just answer the door. I always have my gun either on me or in my hand behind my back.
    I'm a little conflicted here. Obviously it sucks that he was killed, but had the guy answered the door in the manner you describe, maybe he would still be alive. What I got out of the video was that he opened the door while pointing the gun at the deputies. The deputies most likely could have seen that this was indeed the wrong man, but in their defense and for all they knew, he could have been someone with a warrant from another jurisdiction that freaked out at the thought of being taken in and was dead set on taking one of them out. In any event, it's just sad all the way around. It sucks that he had to die, and it also sucks that the officers have to live with the fact that they killed a seemingly innocent man.

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    I think both sides were wrong here. The police should have announced they were leo . The home owner should have found out who was knocking on his door at 1:30 AM before opening the door , gun in hand or not.

    That said , When he opened the door he was ( according to the report ) pointing a gun at them. That is not a good way to greet anyone unless you know it is a threat.

    With what is known about this story , I can't find fault with the police this time.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayspapa View Post
    I think both sides were wrong here. The police should have announced they were leo . The home owner should have found out who was knocking on his door at 1:30 AM before opening the door , gun in hand or not.

    That said , When he opened the door he was ( according to the report ) pointing a gun at them. That is not a good way to greet anyone unless you know it is a threat.

    With what is known about this story , I can't find fault with the police this time.
    Agree 100% if and IF the story is as reported then mistakes were made by poth parties. Unfortunately the homeowners mistake cost him his life. Maby only cost the leo his job or at least a investigation by internal afairs. I suggest that leos be trained how to find a adress. Example: Give them this address == 13847 Hull Street Rd, Midlothian, VA 23112 ==
    and see how fast they can find it! If they cant find it....................THEY AINT MENT TO BE LEOs

    P.S search that address you will like it

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    I've wondered what would happen if police executed a search warrant on an incorrect address, busted into a home, and were shot/killed by a terrified homeowner who thought someone was breaking in.

    The homeowner would be acting within his rights and, assuming he wasn't in turn shot to death, would he reasonably be charged?
    I'm not sure how that would turn out, but I'm thinking that it most likely wouldn't be good. Here in Indiana, a law was recently passed authorizing lethal force against law enforcement officers if they unlawfully enter someone's residence. I'm not so sure that a mistaken address would constitute unlawful entry though. I would imagine if they announced themselves and that they had a warrant, the courts would probably still find that they were acting in their official capacity even though the address was incorrect, which probably would not turn out well for the homeowner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    ... How many would shout through the door to find out who was there? ...
    I had to look at that one twice. At first I thought it said shoot and was hoping nobody answered "yes".

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    Quote Originally Posted by px4guy View Post
    I had to look at that one twice. At first I thought it said shoot and was hoping nobody answered "yes".
    HA thats funny. To quote zombieland "is that how you say hello where your from?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by px4guy View Post
    . Here in Indiana, a law was recently passed authorizing lethal force against law enforcement officers if they unlawfully enter someone's residence. .
    That's because you eminent supreme court ruled that if cops come to your house, you have to let them do whatever they want (overturning only about 700 yrs of common law). So your state had to pass a law ... that's a band-aid IMO, you need to change your constitution as that court opinion is still golden and the law can change in a heart beat.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 07-18-2012 at 01:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayspapa View Post
    I think both sides were wrong here. The police should have announced they were leo . The home owner should have found out who was knocking on his door at 1:30 AM before opening the door , gun in hand or not.

    That said , When he opened the door he was ( according to the report ) pointing a gun at them. That is not a good way to greet anyone unless you know it is a threat.

    With what is known about this story , I can't find fault with the police this time.
    No, only the two deputies state that he pointed a gun at them. Ya think they have a vested interest in maintaining that story?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    The reporter starts out by saying "there is no protocol when it comes to knocking on a person who is allegedly a dangerous suspects door". Not only doesn't it make sense it is completely wrong and a lie. They have protocols about how they knock on a door at 1:30AM.

    I don't believe them one single bit.
    Last edited by gunns; 07-18-2012 at 08:39 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    So how many people are of the "don't answer the door, hope they go away" camp when faced with a similar situation?
    And how many would look out the peephole or a window?
    How many would shout through the door to find out who was there? (And if you're convinced they're cops, do you open the door anyway?)
    And how many would actually open the door (without looking or asking first)?

    The couple times I've been woken by someone at my door, I've looked out an upstairs window & asked "who is it?", which makes them walk around from the front of the house to the side & I can see who it is. I can talk to them right there, or I could get dressed (including pistol) & go closer.
    While I dont blame the victim in this case at all, I would have done things differently. He obviously made a mistake opening the door.

    Banging on the door, not knowing who it is, my first call would have been to the police.

    The police made several mistakes here....

    1)They did not announce themselves as police. If they had, an innocent man would not have been killed.
    2)They did not have all of the available information of the person they were looking for. So, they guessed.......And killed an innocent man.
    3)There never was, and still is no accountability in that department. I read a statement from the sheriff that said "If you pull a gun on the cops you are going to get shot." More than likely the thin blue line will take care of this department, and they will fight any wrong doing on their part.

    This is the second time in a few months that law enforcement has done this. I think its time for our elected officials to make more laws like the on in Indiana.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Here.

    And mods, it's the same topic - please merge the threads.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Here.

    And mods, it's the same topic - please merge the threads.
    Original

  20. #20
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    I would have to agree. Not murder, it wasn't their intention, but their bad judgment took a soul that can't be replaced.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    address == 13847 Hull Street Rd, Midlothian, VA 23112 ==
    and see how fast they can find it! If they cant find it....................THEY AINT MENT TO BE LEOs

    P.S search that address you will like it
    DAMMIT IT, Tanner. Google Maps picture is not clear enough and my eyes are too old. Next time, try doing this http://tinyurl.com/3g4l9cd .

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  22. #22
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    DAMMIT IT, Tanner. Google Maps picture is not clear enough and my eyes are too old. Next time, try doing this http://tinyurl.com/3g4l9cd .

    stay safe.
    SOOooooooooooooooooooooo SORRY! I suggest a new perscription or a microscope.

  23. #23
    Regular Member cabledawg's Avatar
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    I cant get the video to load, but I'm at work and our system might be blocking it or it's just that slow today. So I'll respond based on the information posted already.

    First off, I dont think LEO's should have to announce themselves when dealing with a suspected armed/dangerous person. For the same reasons many consider concealed carry is better; you maintain the element of surprise. Why give the BG a head start? That'd be like a BG announcing himself and his intentions to you when he breaks into your house.

    Second, cops dont have crystal balls or God's all knowing power; sometimes they have to make do with what they have. Some might argue that they shouldnt go after someone until they have all the info, but then again there are many cases that have been solved "on a hunch".

    Third, cops are trained to shoot on sight of a weapon if confronted by a suspect or an unknown. If indeed this man answered the door barrel first, I'd have shot him too. You're given an address of a suspect, possibly armed/dangerous, and someone answers the door pointing a gun in your face. Who wouldnt shoot in that situation?

    To the door answering question posed earlier; I always answer the door. Every middle-of-the-night door knock has been either emergency personnel looking for an address (used to live in a very rural area with poorly marked driveways) or LEO's asking about an incident that happened in the area. Did have one drunk person looking for her friend and read my address wrong. I helped her find her friend; wasnt about to turn out a drunk woman that could have been a victim later. My procedure has always been to kick on the outside lights and crack open the door while standing behind it for cover and to add leverage should a BG try to shove his way in. Now that I have firearms, I'll answer with one in hand, but behind me until I know if I'm dealing with a threat or not. Appears not threatening to the door knocker but still maintains a level of protection and defense options.

    I agree that laws need to change so that homeowners can not be faulted for firing on LEO's who "bust in" unlawfully, but as in many states, they must cross the threshold of the doorway or window to be considered fair game. Simply coming onto your property isnt enough. Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt condone LEO's (or anyone for that matter) to simply enter my property without reason or my permission, but the house would be the last line of defense and breaking that line calls for an immediate and lethal response to a threat.
    Last edited by cabledawg; 08-27-2012 at 08:03 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabledawg View Post
    I cant get the video to load, but I'm at work and our system might be blocking it or it's just that slow today. So I'll respond based on the information posted already.

    First off, I dont think LEO's should have to announce themselves when dealing with a suspected armed/dangerous person. For the same reasons many consider concealed carry is better; you maintain the element of surprise. Why give the BG a head start? That'd be like a BG announcing himself and his intentions to you when he breaks into your house.
    Second, cops dont have crystal balls or God's all knowing power; sometimes they have to make do with what they have. Some might argue that they shouldnt go after someone until they have all the info, but then again there are many cases that have been solved "on a hunch".

    Third, cops are trained to shoot on sight of a weapon if confronted by a suspect or an unknown. If indeed this man answered the door barrel first, I'd have shot him too. You're given an address of a suspect, possibly armed/dangerous, and someone answers the door pointing a gun in your face. Who wouldnt shoot in that situation?

    To the door answering question posed earlier; I always answer the door. Every middle-of-the-night door knock has been either emergency personnel looking for an address (used to live in a very rural area with poorly marked driveways) or LEO's asking about an incident that happened in the area. Did have one drunk person looking for her friend and read my address wrong. I helped her find her friend; wasnt about to turn out a drunk woman that could have been a victim later. My procedure has always been to kick on the outside lights and crack open the door while standing behind it for cover and to add leverage should a BG try to shove his way in. Now that I have firearms, I'll answer with one in hand, but behind me until I know if I'm dealing with a threat or not. Appears not threatening to the door knocker but still maintains a level of protection and defense options.

    I agree that laws need to change so that homeowners can not be faulted for firing on LEO's who "bust in" unlawfully, but as in many states, they must cross the threshold of the doorway or window to be considered fair game. Simply coming onto your property isnt enough. Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt condone LEO's (or anyone for that matter) to simply enter my property without reason or my permission, but the house would be the last line of defense and breaking that line calls for an immediate and lethal response to a threat.
    Im interested to see how some on here respond to the things I marked in red!!!

  25. #25
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    What's the big deal? Cops killing innocent people? sheesh, seems to happen everyday.
    As for MKEgals ??? I would never open the door for a cop unless he had a warrant or convinced me there was a good reason for it. As I've said before Audio/Video equipment are a must. Here's a screen shot of my front porch right now. Video and audio from an excellent microphone on the front porch piped into all the TVs in the house. If the dog barks (happens long before anyone gets close) I just hit the INPUT selection on the TV I'm closes to and see what's up.

    Click image for larger version. 

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