DAMMIT IT, Tanner. Google Maps picture is not clear enough and my eyes are too old. Next time, try doing this http://tinyurl.com/3g4l9cd .
stay safe.
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Police shoot armed man who trying to defend hisself
- Thread starter madcitysw
- Start date
DAMMIT IT, Tanner. Google Maps picture is not clear enough and my eyes are too old. Next time, try doing this http://tinyurl.com/3g4l9cd .
stay safe.
Tanner
Regular Member
SOOooooooooooooooooooooo SORRY! I suggest a new perscription or a microscope.:monkey
cabledawg
Regular Member
I cant get the video to load, but I'm at work and our system might be blocking it or it's just that slow today. So I'll respond based on the information posted already.
First off, I dont think LEO's should have to announce themselves when dealing with a suspected armed/dangerous person. For the same reasons many consider concealed carry is better; you maintain the element of surprise. Why give the BG a head start? That'd be like a BG announcing himself and his intentions to you when he breaks into your house.
Second, cops dont have crystal balls or God's all knowing power; sometimes they have to make do with what they have. Some might argue that they shouldnt go after someone until they have all the info, but then again there are many cases that have been solved "on a hunch".
Third, cops are trained to shoot on sight of a weapon if confronted by a suspect or an unknown. If indeed this man answered the door barrel first, I'd have shot him too. You're given an address of a suspect, possibly armed/dangerous, and someone answers the door pointing a gun in your face. Who wouldnt shoot in that situation?
To the door answering question posed earlier; I always answer the door. Every middle-of-the-night door knock has been either emergency personnel looking for an address (used to live in a very rural area with poorly marked driveways) or LEO's asking about an incident that happened in the area. Did have one drunk person looking for her friend and read my address wrong. I helped her find her friend; wasnt about to turn out a drunk woman that could have been a victim later. My procedure has always been to kick on the outside lights and crack open the door while standing behind it for cover and to add leverage should a BG try to shove his way in. Now that I have firearms, I'll answer with one in hand, but behind me until I know if I'm dealing with a threat or not. Appears not threatening to the door knocker but still maintains a level of protection and defense options.
I agree that laws need to change so that homeowners can not be faulted for firing on LEO's who "bust in" unlawfully, but as in many states, they must cross the threshold of the doorway or window to be considered fair game. Simply coming onto your property isnt enough. Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt condone LEO's (or anyone for that matter) to simply enter my property without reason or my permission, but the house would be the last line of defense and breaking that line calls for an immediate and lethal response to a threat.
First off, I dont think LEO's should have to announce themselves when dealing with a suspected armed/dangerous person. For the same reasons many consider concealed carry is better; you maintain the element of surprise. Why give the BG a head start? That'd be like a BG announcing himself and his intentions to you when he breaks into your house.
Second, cops dont have crystal balls or God's all knowing power; sometimes they have to make do with what they have. Some might argue that they shouldnt go after someone until they have all the info, but then again there are many cases that have been solved "on a hunch".
Third, cops are trained to shoot on sight of a weapon if confronted by a suspect or an unknown. If indeed this man answered the door barrel first, I'd have shot him too. You're given an address of a suspect, possibly armed/dangerous, and someone answers the door pointing a gun in your face. Who wouldnt shoot in that situation?
To the door answering question posed earlier; I always answer the door. Every middle-of-the-night door knock has been either emergency personnel looking for an address (used to live in a very rural area with poorly marked driveways) or LEO's asking about an incident that happened in the area. Did have one drunk person looking for her friend and read my address wrong. I helped her find her friend; wasnt about to turn out a drunk woman that could have been a victim later. My procedure has always been to kick on the outside lights and crack open the door while standing behind it for cover and to add leverage should a BG try to shove his way in. Now that I have firearms, I'll answer with one in hand, but behind me until I know if I'm dealing with a threat or not. Appears not threatening to the door knocker but still maintains a level of protection and defense options.
I agree that laws need to change so that homeowners can not be faulted for firing on LEO's who "bust in" unlawfully, but as in many states, they must cross the threshold of the doorway or window to be considered fair game. Simply coming onto your property isnt enough. Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt condone LEO's (or anyone for that matter) to simply enter my property without reason or my permission, but the house would be the last line of defense and breaking that line calls for an immediate and lethal response to a threat.
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Tanner
Regular Member
Im interested to see how some on here respond to the things I marked in red!!!
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
What's the big deal? Cops killing innocent people? sheesh, seems to happen everyday.
As for MKEgals ??? I would never open the door for a cop unless he had a warrant or convinced me there was a good reason for it. As I've said before Audio/Video equipment are a must. Here's a screen shot of my front porch right now.
Video and audio from an excellent microphone on the front porch piped into all the TVs in the house. If the dog barks (happens long before anyone gets close) I just hit the INPUT selection on the TV I'm closes to and see what's up.
As for MKEgals ??? I would never open the door for a cop unless he had a warrant or convinced me there was a good reason for it. As I've said before Audio/Video equipment are a must. Here's a screen shot of my front porch right now.
Video and audio from an excellent microphone on the front porch piped into all the TVs in the house. If the dog barks (happens long before anyone gets close) I just hit the INPUT selection on the TV I'm closes to and see what's up.
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
Here's mine: UGH!
I would rather have a few BGs not get caught on a "hunch" then innocent people gunned down by their own government!
Unidentified cop visits should never, ever happen. Warrants to enter a home through force unannounced should allow be allowed in rare extreme cases only.
Aknazer
Regular Member
And what about the laws that let the cops get away with "accidentally" killing citizens? Those laws are the worst.
Personally I think these no knock and short knock warrants need to be outlawed. They are abused and just ask for more trouble than they supposedly help. Busting in w/o the person knowing who it is instantly looks like it's a criminal. Which means that unless the person is going to just bow down to a criminal someone is likely to end up dead. And chances are it will be the citizen because if they realize it's the cops they will try to comply, but the cops are just going to shoot them because they had a weapon or resisted or something.
Citizens shouldn't be scared of their government, the government should be scared of the citizens.
OC for ME
Regular Member
MSG Laigaie
Campaign Veteran
Third, cops are trained to shoot on sight of a weapon if confronted by a suspect or an unknown. If indeed this man answered the door barrel first, I'd have shot him too. You're given an address of a suspect, possibly armed/dangerous, and someone answers the door pointing a gun in your face. Who wouldnt shoot in that situation?
I was in a meeting last week with the local Dep Chief of Police. We were discussing the settlement for my Open Carry incident last December. During the conversation she commented on how her LEOs are trained to see Gun= bad guy. The city atty cringed when she said it.
Shoot first, shoot often, is that the way it goes?? I find this attitude not only sickening, but contradictory to the general peace. This "shoot them all and let the gods sort it out" crap MUST stop. Collateral damage?? I, and the people standing near me are not "collateral" and I do not expect to be "accidentally" or "incidentally" shot because I am armed or because you cannot do your job. If your job is too difficult, find another line of work or suck it up. "Oh, sorry, wrong house." just does not cut it at the funeral.
[end rant]
I was in a meeting last week with the local Dep Chief of Police. We were discussing the settlement for my Open Carry incident last December. During the conversation she commented on how her LEOs are trained to see Gun= bad guy. The city atty cringed when she said it.
Shoot first, shoot often, is that the way it goes?? I find this attitude not only sickening, but contradictory to the general peace. This "shoot them all and let the gods sort it out" crap MUST stop. Collateral damage?? I, and the people standing near me are not "collateral" and I do not expect to be "accidentally" or "incidentally" shot because I am armed or because you cannot do your job. If your job is too difficult, find another line of work or suck it up. "Oh, sorry, wrong house." just does not cut it at the funeral.
[end rant]
cabledawg
Regular Member
There are no "laws" that let cops shoot citizens "accidentally". It comes down to whether a prosecutor wants to press charges. Shoot at the BG and innocent bystanders are hit? Should be considered manslaughter. A LEO should be trained to take a clean shot, but it's not a perfect world and hence they should be reprimanded for colateral damage.
Now onto the no notice entries. Barring the subject of this thread, how many times (or references) can you recall where cops just bust into a house, shoot the place up, and then realize they have the wrong house? Not very many. It's part of the territory and one that has risk involved on both sides. Sometimes, just sometimes, **** happens. But by demanding that these entries be outlawed, you're sounding like the lefties who want to take away our guns. There simply isnt enough "abuse" to justify outlawing no-knock entries.
When I mentioned earlier that cops are trained to shoot someone with a weapon, that doesnt mean that simply having a gun is reason enough to shoot. What I'm referencing is a situation where they are looking for a murder suspect at a given address. They knock on the door which is then answered by the barrel of a gun. Wouldnt you shoot? Hell ya I would. Once I see the business end of a gun, I'm not going to wait to see if the other person will shoot first. There are lots of criminals with guns who dont get shot, but there are many criminals (and others) who point guns at cops and alot of them get shot. I'm not saying the kid pointed a gun at the cops as I wasnt there to physically witness the events, but I'm certian the cops didnt just barge in and shoot the place up as the girlfriend describes. Both sides covering thier butts?
twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
Disgusting. Oh we shot up a some innocent people. (shrug) it happens!
Your God damned right it should be outlawed. This attitude of it's okay to shoot innocent people occasionally because the cops might be put in danger if they announce themselves when going after BGs makes me f%ucking sick!
ETA: This happens all to frequently BTW. This is not, by far, an isolated indecent. Do a search for cops breaking into the wrong house. Happens.....all...the....time.
here's a fun one:
http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/10/st-paul-cops-shoot-dog-in-wrong-door-rai
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OC for ME
Regular Member
How about a sternly worded Post-it note afixed to their personnel file? The problem is that copshave QI and "good faith belief" and BINGO, cop(s) are off the hook. get rid of QI, good faith beliefe should likewise be terminated with extreme prejudice.
When cops are held criminally responsible for the their on the job actions their actions will be truely justified under the law. Ooops, sorry, wrong address, should not cut it in this case. The cops were just randomly searching door to door and they got it wrong and some wish to excuse their action just cuz they think (maintain) they see a gun pointed at them.
EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
And what if the gun was pointed at them. I see no evidence to contradict the deputies story. If you come out the door pointing a gun then that is legal justification to shoot. if you are cop looking for a suspect and a guy comes out pointing a gun, that's self defense when you shoot him, if you're supervising your daughters going door to door selling girl scout cookies and a guy comes out with a gun pointed at them, you can fire back. pointing a gun at someone when you're not justified to is aggravated assault is most juristictions I do believe. even at 2 in the morning you can't just point a gun at people for knocking at your door.
I just want to clarify, I am against law enforcement corruption and violation of someone's rights, had the cops busted down his door without a warrant and the homeowner pulled a gun or shot at then INSIDE the house that would be different, but I just don't see the legal concept that allows you to threaten people with a firearm when they're standing on your porch knocking on your door if you don't have specific cause to believe you're in danger from them.
Unless someone posts a more recent news story on this incident that shows that the cops were lying about him with a gun, or there was something dirty or corrupt going on, or if the officers provoked the man into pulling a gun. if such a story is out there or is posted I will personally admit my mistake in relying on this news report posted by the OP and join your side of the argument. however given the details from this story, alone, I would be on the side of pegging it as a DGU on part of the officer.
PistolPackingMomma
Regular Member
Sorry, sugar, but even ONCE is too many. And it has happened more often than you seem to think.
So the innocents who were killed and the cops given nothing more than a stern talking-to is okay with you? The fact that the police can break in to my home without announcing themselves is an abuse of LIBERTY. So yes, it should be outlawed.
Do you have any idea how many times cops get the address wrong? And are not held responsible for doing so?
Uh, wasn't this a case of them NOT knocking? Alternatively, ask yourself, if strange men show up on your porch with guns, aren't you gonna arm up and get ready to defend your life? As you said,
Or are only cops worthy of defending themselves from unknown, armed strangers?
Perhaps both sides are covering their asses, but ask yourself which side has more to lose if they're found to be in the wrong?
EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
Sorry sugar, but we don't live in Mr. Roger's neighborhood. Accidents happen in the course of doing anything. to expect 100% perfection is to expect what society, law, the bible, and anyone with common sense already knows, humans cannot be perfectpistolpackingmama said:
If killed in the course of a police raid in which a lawful search warrant was issued and the "innocents" did not immediately obey police commands, or chose to confront officers with weapons, then short answer is yes.
The police don't need to announce themselves to enter your home, they just need a warrant. they don't even need the physical warrant there, just the promise a judge who says he'll sign the warrant in the morning. This is not an invasion of liberty, the 4th amendment does not specify how the police enter one's home, only when it is lawful. and it's a moot argument anyway since the deputies here did NOT enter the mans home, they knocked on his front door and he answered with a pistol in their faces.... bad idea, and the last one he'll ever have.
I read MAYBE three of four stories a year of a wrong address raid in which someone is injured or killed. I'm willing to bet that a wrong address raid in which someone is killed or seriously injured by police is probably not even a tenth of a percent of search warrants served.
The news video stated the police DID knock at his door, the man was killed when he answered pointing a gun out the door. not in his living room while watching Jersey Shore when police executed a no-knock warrant at his wrong address
If people are banging on my door at 2 in the morning, i'll grab my trusty .38, get to my gun cabinet, retrieve my shotgun then proceed to the "safe room" which has its own landline phone and strategically placed cover and proceed to call the police. I'm not going to confront a stranger outside my house with a gun, the last thing I want is a gun battle in my front yard. if they break the door and are approaching the safe room, now I use deadly force if they are obviously there to do me harm, but show up and open my front door to people who's identity I don't know at 2AM? NEVER
this statement doesn't make sense in the context of the argument you're trying to counter
Jack House
Regular Member
Ok look! Another state apologist.
davidmcbeth
Banned
OK, this guy is deceased so there is nothing we can do for him. But what about others in the same situation in the future....
Here is what I have done in such situations (only a few times ... relatives traveling to "surprise me" with a visit):
1) do not open the door
2) have a rifle with a night vision scope prepared already
3) go out back door (after checking and making sure its clear)
4) go around to the front at a distance most favorable to you (you have night vision and a rifle & they may or may not--so still take cover)
5) yell over to the persons to leave your property
6) take it from there
Others have a roof option ... which is good too but you have limited escape options.
Here is what I have done in such situations (only a few times ... relatives traveling to "surprise me" with a visit):
1) do not open the door
2) have a rifle with a night vision scope prepared already
3) go out back door (after checking and making sure its clear)
4) go around to the front at a distance most favorable to you (you have night vision and a rifle & they may or may not--so still take cover)
5) yell over to the persons to leave your property
6) take it from there
Others have a roof option ... which is good too but you have limited escape options.
EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
Ok look! Another state apologist.
Well you know after arguing with liberals and anti-gunners long enough I just adopted this philosophy, somebody's gotta be the evil-doer in every discussion. Pure 100% un-homenigized organic free-range Evil right here
but that's ok becuase you instinctively take one side and I after analysis choose to take the other and we share those respective ideas, that's called a "discussion" As far as McBeth's idea, I disagree with that notion, first night vision goggles are bulky and expensive and require expensive batteries most of the time, and rifles have huge potential to over penetrate and can carry some distance, making them dangerous to the entire neighborhood in a way that a shotgun or pistol is not.
I'm more of a proponent of the "safe room" concept inside the house. where you should have A) strategic decorating so that most handgun bullets won't be able to penetrate your cover B) a cheap old landline corded phone that only needs power from the phone line and not the power line. C) a cheap old flip open cell phone always on charge that can call 911 if your landline is cut
one should stay in there, if you can afford it having a CCTV screen in your safe room with cameras pointing at all the yards is nice. but I think it's a bad idea to leave your domicile without proper intel on who is out there, how many there are, what they're armed with etc. and at that hour if it is cops in uniform on the camera screen and I wasn't making noise that would subject me to a likely complaint from a neighbor, I'd probably call dispatch and ask to confirm there are police officers at my door step and not some clever crooks who pieced together a reasonably convincing uniform imitation.
PistolPackingMomma
Regular Member
We also do not live in a world where the government/police are benevolent bestowers of rainbows and free hugs. Accidents do happen, but these were entirely preventable. To make excuses for such actions is beyond my patience.
You think such action should only be illegal if this particular criteria is met? What if (as in this case) the police do not identify themselves? What if multiple police officers are giving contradictory commands all at once? (As they have been known to do.) What if the police do NOT knock?
I will not argue that the deceased man's actions were stupid, but he would not have been killed if the police had not been there. AT THE WRONG HOUSE. Convenient to overlook that while defending your apologist agenda, and when confronted you are shrugging your shoulders and saying "Accidents happen."
Whatever the percentage is (I don't have the time to look it up right now, and I'm not going to accept your 'bet' as a viable answer), the fact that it is higher than 0% is unacceptable. To quote Sir William Blackstone, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
They knocked on his door. Did they identify themselves as police?....gee, no they did NOT. I find it difficult to believe anyone here would answer the door unarmed when strange, armed men knock at an unusual hour when they're not expecting visitors.
And if the police DO decide to execute a no knock warrant on you in your home?
I'm not responsible for what you do or do not understand, and I'm not going to hold your hand to walk you through it.
EMNofSeattle
Regular Member
My specific replies are in bold
And a couple other things to throw out there
First off, I have no "state apologist agenda" this did not occur anywhere near where I lived, how it ends up doesn't matter to me. therefore I have no agenda other then the facts of this case.
Second off, lets role play, let's say you're visiting WA one fine day in the great county of Kitsap, and you run out of gas and are lost on my street, so you come to my door and knock to ask if I have some gas (lawfully carrying a defensive weapon) if I come straight out the door pointing a gun at your head, are you to wait to see if I shoot you, or are you going to defend yourself with your weapon at that point?
P.S. if you present your OCDO challenge coil to my observation window I'll allow you to borrow some gas, and get some directions, I mean I can't be EVIL all the time...