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Thread: Help with the School Property law

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    Help with the School Property law

    As I understand the law I may CC a gun in my car in places such as the glove box, console, gun case or other such container. I also understand that I can not carry the gun into the school but MUST stay in the driveway, round about, or other normal ingress and egress areas.

    What is not very clear is can I CC in the parking lot THEN park and leave my firearm CC'ed in the car as I go inside the building?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearup View Post
    As I understand the law I may CC a gun in my car in places such as the glove box, console, gun case or other such container. I also understand that I can not carry the gun into the school but MUST stay in the driveway, round about, or other normal ingress and egress areas.

    What is not very clear is can I CC in the parking lot THEN park and leave my firearm CC'ed in the car as I go inside the building?
    Can't say for sure since I don't CC, but I believe you have to unload it and secure it off of school property if you plan on getting out of the car.

    I have to go to an automotive site and ask about growing potatoes now.....but someone will be along to confirm or correct that information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    ...I have to go to an automotive site and ask about growing potatoes now...
    gonna make CHiPs or fries with them taters?
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Can't say for sure since I don't CC, but I believe you have to unload it and secure it off of school property if you plan on getting out of the car.

    I have to go to an automotive site and ask about growing potatoes now.....but someone will be along to confirm or correct that information.


    I am not sure what you are getting at with that remark but I think the question was not out of line. I OC all the time which is why I joined this site. BUT the CHP does have its PERKS which I know you probably hate but I do not care. I will take advantage of them because they are there. I would love to see Constitutional Carry in this state but as of today it does not exist.

    Now with all that said this makes the question quite relevant IMHO. You could have just been nice and answered the question and not had the attitude like I was trying to intentionally destroy the sanctity of this site OR just stayed out of the thread. Either way I do not think the sarcastic remarks were appropriate no matter what your take on my question is.

    Back to the question........


    Problem with schools is that I cannot OC loaded at a school ever. I have to unload and put it away before I enter. (as far as I can tell). This is just not practical in reality. A CHP will allow me to CC outside in parking lots and such but what if I want to go in to see a production or something for my children. There is a class 6 felony involved here. Am I considered as in possession of a firearm if I am in the building and my gun is in the car? I mean, YES I own it but it is not on or about my person.

    The law just does not seem to clearly address this scenerio and with the listed punishment, I would hate to tempt fate.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    FROM 05/21/10 VCDL ALERT -

    The vehicle carry law, has an additional benefit for BOTH CHP holders and non-CHP holders. Under the law, a loaded handgun can be kept in a secured container or a secured compartment in a motor vehicle while on K-12 school property.


    The law (18.2-308 B 10) is in the list of general exemptions from the concealed weapon law. Police officers and Commonwealth Attorneys, for example, are listed in 18.2-308 B. The key is that in the third paragraph of the K-12 school weapons law (18.2-308.1) it says that anyone exempted from the concealed weapon law is also exempted from the ban on guns on K-12 school property.


    Thus, as long as your loaded handgun is in a secured compartment or a secured container BEFORE you pull onto school property and REMAINS SECURED in that compartment or container UNTIL AFTER you pull off the property, you are legal.


    In case those of you with CHPs are wondering why you can't carry outside of your vehicle on K-12 school property, that's because the CHP wording (18.2-308 D) is NOT in the list of exemptions to the concealed weapon law (18.2-308 B and 18.2-308 C). Instead, you can think of your CHP as a 'get out of jail free' card. You are not actually exempted from the concealed carry law, but you have an affirmative defense against any prosecution.
    Carry On.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    FROM 05/21/10 VCDL ALERT -

    The vehicle carry law, has an additional benefit for BOTH CHP holders and non-CHP holders. Under the law, a loaded handgun can be kept in a secured container or a secured compartment in a motor vehicle while on K-12 school property.


    The law (18.2-308 B 10) is in the list of general exemptions from the concealed weapon law. Police officers and Commonwealth Attorneys, for example, are listed in 18.2-308 B. The key is that in the third paragraph of the K-12 school weapons law (18.2-308.1) it says that anyone exempted from the concealed weapon law is also exempted from the ban on guns on K-12 school property.


    Thus, as long as your loaded handgun is in a secured compartment or a secured container BEFORE you pull onto school property and REMAINS SECURED in that compartment or container UNTIL AFTER you pull off the property, you are legal.


    In case those of you with CHPs are wondering why you can't carry outside of your vehicle on K-12 school property, that's because the CHP wording (18.2-308 D) is NOT in the list of exemptions to the concealed weapon law (18.2-308 B and 18.2-308 C). Instead, you can think of your CHP as a 'get out of jail free' card. You are not actually exempted from the concealed carry law, but you have an affirmative defense against any prosecution.




    Thanks ED.


    I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I thought I read somewhere that you had to stay in the car but that is not in the verbage of the law. I am a little confused as to what you are saying in that last paragraph, but I think you answered my original question. I can get out of the car if I leave the gun behind and "secured".

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearup View Post
    Thanks ED.


    I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I thought I read somewhere that you had to stay in the car but that is not in the verbage of the law. I am a little confused as to what you are saying in that last paragraph, but I think you answered my original question. I can get out of the car if I leave the gun behind and "secured".
    The details are subtle, but you are very close to the whole picture.

    18.2-302.1 is the school carry law. There are two parts of it germane to this question.

    The older part is the "shall not apply to" sections in the paragraph after paragraph C:

    The restriction set forth in this law "shall not apply to" "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

    This is where you got the "must stay in the car" idea, because that is what this "shall not apply" provision says.

    However, earlier in the code, in that same paragraph we have this:

    "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

    That means that the list of exemptions in the CHP section of code also apply to this section of code. Last year, it was this list of exemptions that was updated to include the storage of a loaded firearm in a secured console.

    So... to sum up... there are two provisions for carrying a loaded firearm onto school property. The older one says you must stay in your car, and is designed to apply to parents dropping off or picking up kids. The newer one essentially says it doesn't count as a firearm on school property if it is in a secured container, with no restriction on whether you park, get out, etc.

    Hope that helps!

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The details are subtle, but you are very close to the whole picture.

    18.2-302.1 is the school carry law. There are two parts of it germane to this question.

    The older part is the "shall not apply to" sections in the paragraph after paragraph C:

    The restriction set forth in this law "shall not apply to" "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

    This is where you got the "must stay in the car" idea, because that is what this "shall not apply" provision says.

    However, earlier in the code, in that same paragraph we have this:

    "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

    That means that the list of exemptions in the CHP section of code also apply to this section of code. Last year, it was this list of exemptions that was updated to include the storage of a loaded firearm in a secured console.

    So... to sum up... there are two provisions for carrying a loaded firearm onto school property. The older one says you must stay in your car, and is designed to apply to parents dropping off or picking up kids. The newer one essentially says it doesn't count as a firearm on school property if it is in a secured container, with no restriction on whether you park, get out, etc.

    Hope that helps!

    TFred

    Thanks so much. You and Ed have really helped clear this up for me.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk4 View Post
    gonna make CHiPs or fries with them taters?
    I figured I'd make CHIPS for a school lunch.
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-19-2012 at 12:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I figured I'd make CHIPS for a school lunch.
    I thought school kids liked TATER TOTS!

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearup View Post
    As I understand the law I may CC a gun in my car in places such as the glove box, console, gun case or other such container. I also understand that I can not carry the gun into the school but MUST stay in the driveway, round about, or other normal ingress and egress areas.

    What is not very clear is can I CC in the parking lot THEN park and leave my firearm CC'ed in the car as I go inside the building?
    Are we talking about guns, or just handguns? It makes a diference. The rules for rifles and shotguns are different.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Are we talking about guns, or just handguns? It makes a diference. The rules for rifles and shotguns are different.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    For the purpose of this discussion, I was refering to handguns. Sorry for the confusion.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Are we talking about guns, or just handguns? It makes a diference. The rules for rifles and shotguns are different.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    If you can store a long gun in your glove box, you must have VERY large gloves!

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    If you can store a long gun in your glove box, you must have VERY large gloves!

    TFred
    It isn't all that long TFred,,,but I have a 12 ga I keep in the console

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    So with thse responses in mind, I have another thought.


    When is a school NOT considered a school?


    The church I attend has one of the biggest private Christian schools in the Tidewater area, Norfolk Christian. Now on Sunday there is obviously no school but how do you draw the distinction betweeh school and church. Some churches use high school auditoriums on Sundays.

    Does the concept of "school property" change on the weekend or in the summer months?
    ”A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.”
    ~Sigmund Freud

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearup View Post
    So with thse responses in mind, I have another thought.


    When is a school NOT considered a school?


    The church I attend has one of the biggest private Christian schools in the Tidewater area, Norfolk Christian. Now on Sunday there is obviously no school but how do you draw the distinction betweeh school and church. Some churches use high school auditoriums on Sundays.

    Does the concept of "school property" change on the weekend or in the summer months?
    A school (as defined in 18.2-308.1) is always a school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    A school (as defined in 18.2-308.1) is always a school.

    I'm not so sure. This church owns the property and has a school use its facilities. It is very confusing, for me at least. I would think this has to have been challenged before at some level.
    ”A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearup View Post
    I'm not so sure. This church owns the property and has a school use its facilities. It is very confusing, for me at least. I would think this has to have been challenged before at some level.
    Is the Church 1000 feet away from the school. Or is it all one building?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    Is the Church 1000 feet away from the school. Or is it all one building?
    Two entirely different subjects Tanner.

    The 1000 ft GFZ is Federal Law and IMO, not enforceable as a primary charge (and has been debated to death here)...the school property is state law and is ON SCHOOL PROPERTY....so the question is really, is it school property even if it shares it with the Church??????

    I don't want to be the test case on that one because I think you'd be convicted in the lower courts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Two entirely different subjects Tanner.

    The 1000 ft GFZ is Federal Law and IMO, not enforceable as a primary charge (and has been debated to death here)...the school property is state law and is ON SCHOOL PROPERTY....so the question is really, is it school property even if it shares it with the Church??????

    I don't want to be the test case on that one because I think you'd be convicted in the lower courts.
    Then what came first the chicken or the egg? The church or the school? I cant imagine that it would matter. Like proshooter said "a school is always a school" It seems the only way around it is if the church and school are two different buildings. Im sure there is someting im missing.
    Last edited by Tanner; 07-30-2012 at 09:57 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    A school (as defined in 18.2-308.1) is always a school.
    After school hours a sex offender can again be on school property, but a gun owner can't.
    Carry On.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    After school hours a sex offender can again be on school property, but a gun owner can't.
    Is this true WTF is the world coming to! Things like this really boil my blood.

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    I would think that one could make a pretty good case that a school that meets in a church would fall under the paragraph (b) definition of 18.2-308.1:

    (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place;

    (My emphasis added.)

    As noted, there is probably no precedent, and nobody wants to be the test case.

    TFred

    PS: This question might very well be a good one for another AG opinion. He obviously isn't afraid of guns in churches.

    PS2: On my first point, especially if the church folks use that part of the building for any of their church-related functions during the times that the school is not meeting.
    Last edited by TFred; 07-30-2012 at 10:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Two entirely different subjects Tanner.

    The 1000 ft GFZ is Federal Law and IMO, not enforceable as a primary charge (and has been debated to death here)...the school property is state law and is ON SCHOOL PROPERTY....so the question is really, is it school property even if it shares it with the Church??????

    I don't want to be the test case on that one because I think you'd be convicted in the lower courts.

    Even more to the point, is a DUAL PURPOSE building that is NOT currently being used for school still a school? Is it a church when used as a church and a school when used as a school? I would assume it would be a "school" if both activities were conducted at the same time.
    ”A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.”
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  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    After school hours a sex offender can again be on school property, but a gun owner can't.
    Depends on the definition of "Gun", Ed.
    This is your rifle, this is your gun...........

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