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Help with the School Property law

gearup

Regular Member
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Jun 5, 2012
Messages
40
Location
Norfolk
As I understand the law I may CC a gun in my car in places such as the glove box, console, gun case or other such container. I also understand that I can not carry the gun into the school but MUST stay in the driveway, round about, or other normal ingress and egress areas.

What is not very clear is can I CC in the parking lot THEN park and leave my firearm CC'ed in the car as I go inside the building?
 

peter nap

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Valhalla
As I understand the law I may CC a gun in my car in places such as the glove box, console, gun case or other such container. I also understand that I can not carry the gun into the school but MUST stay in the driveway, round about, or other normal ingress and egress areas.

What is not very clear is can I CC in the parking lot THEN park and leave my firearm CC'ed in the car as I go inside the building?

Can't say for sure since I don't CC, but I believe you have to unload it and secure it off of school property if you plan on getting out of the car.

I have to go to an automotive site and ask about growing potatoes now.....but someone will be along to confirm or correct that information.
 

gearup

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Location
Norfolk
Can't say for sure since I don't CC, but I believe you have to unload it and secure it off of school property if you plan on getting out of the car.

I have to go to an automotive site and ask about growing potatoes now.....but someone will be along to confirm or correct that information.



I am not sure what you are getting at with that remark but I think the question was not out of line. I OC all the time which is why I joined this site. BUT the CHP does have its PERKS which I know you probably hate but I do not care. I will take advantage of them because they are there. I would love to see Constitutional Carry in this state but as of today it does not exist.

Now with all that said this makes the question quite relevant IMHO. You could have just been nice and answered the question and not had the attitude like I was trying to intentionally destroy the sanctity of this site OR just stayed out of the thread. Either way I do not think the sarcastic remarks were appropriate no matter what your take on my question is.

Back to the question........


Problem with schools is that I cannot OC loaded at a school ever. I have to unload and put it away before I enter. (as far as I can tell). This is just not practical in reality. A CHP will allow me to CC outside in parking lots and such but what if I want to go in to see a production or something for my children. There is a class 6 felony involved here. Am I considered as in possession of a firearm if I am in the building and my gun is in the car? I mean, YES I own it but it is not on or about my person.

The law just does not seem to clearly address this scenerio and with the listed punishment, I would hate to tempt fate.
 

ed

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Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
FROM 05/21/10 VCDL ALERT -

The vehicle carry law, has an additional benefit for BOTH CHP holders and non-CHP holders. Under the law, a loaded handgun can be kept in a secured container or a secured compartment in a motor vehicle while on K-12 school property.


The law (18.2-308 B 10) is in the list of general exemptions from the concealed weapon law. Police officers and Commonwealth Attorneys, for example, are listed in 18.2-308 B. The key is that in the third paragraph of the K-12 school weapons law (18.2-308.1) it says that anyone exempted from the concealed weapon law is also exempted from the ban on guns on K-12 school property.


Thus, as long as your loaded handgun is in a secured compartment or a secured container BEFORE you pull onto school property and REMAINS SECURED in that compartment or container UNTIL AFTER you pull off the property, you are legal.


In case those of you with CHPs are wondering why you can't carry outside of your vehicle on K-12 school property, that's because the CHP wording (18.2-308 D) is NOT in the list of exemptions to the concealed weapon law (18.2-308 B and 18.2-308 C). Instead, you can think of your CHP as a 'get out of jail free' card. You are not actually exempted from the concealed carry law, but you have an affirmative defense against any prosecution.
 

gearup

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Jun 5, 2012
Messages
40
Location
Norfolk
FROM 05/21/10 VCDL ALERT -

The vehicle carry law, has an additional benefit for BOTH CHP holders and non-CHP holders. Under the law, a loaded handgun can be kept in a secured container or a secured compartment in a motor vehicle while on K-12 school property.


The law (18.2-308 B 10) is in the list of general exemptions from the concealed weapon law. Police officers and Commonwealth Attorneys, for example, are listed in 18.2-308 B. The key is that in the third paragraph of the K-12 school weapons law (18.2-308.1) it says that anyone exempted from the concealed weapon law is also exempted from the ban on guns on K-12 school property.


Thus, as long as your loaded handgun is in a secured compartment or a secured container BEFORE you pull onto school property and REMAINS SECURED in that compartment or container UNTIL AFTER you pull off the property, you are legal.


In case those of you with CHPs are wondering why you can't carry outside of your vehicle on K-12 school property, that's because the CHP wording (18.2-308 D) is NOT in the list of exemptions to the concealed weapon law (18.2-308 B and 18.2-308 C). Instead, you can think of your CHP as a 'get out of jail free' card. You are not actually exempted from the concealed carry law, but you have an affirmative defense against any prosecution.





Thanks ED.


I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I thought I read somewhere that you had to stay in the car but that is not in the verbage of the law. I am a little confused as to what you are saying in that last paragraph, but I think you answered my original question. I can get out of the car if I leave the gun behind and "secured".
 

TFred

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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Thanks ED.


I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I thought I read somewhere that you had to stay in the car but that is not in the verbage of the law. I am a little confused as to what you are saying in that last paragraph, but I think you answered my original question. I can get out of the car if I leave the gun behind and "secured".
The details are subtle, but you are very close to the whole picture.

18.2-302.1 is the school carry law. There are two parts of it germane to this question.

The older part is the "shall not apply to" sections in the paragraph after paragraph C:

The restriction set forth in this law "shall not apply to" "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

This is where you got the "must stay in the car" idea, because that is what this "shall not apply" provision says.

However, earlier in the code, in that same paragraph we have this:

"The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

That means that the list of exemptions in the CHP section of code also apply to this section of code. Last year, it was this list of exemptions that was updated to include the storage of a loaded firearm in a secured console.

So... to sum up... there are two provisions for carrying a loaded firearm onto school property. The older one says you must stay in your car, and is designed to apply to parents dropping off or picking up kids. The newer one essentially says it doesn't count as a firearm on school property if it is in a secured container, with no restriction on whether you park, get out, etc.

Hope that helps!

TFred
 

gearup

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Messages
40
Location
Norfolk
The details are subtle, but you are very close to the whole picture.

18.2-302.1 is the school carry law. There are two parts of it germane to this question.

The older part is the "shall not apply to" sections in the paragraph after paragraph C:

The restriction set forth in this law "shall not apply to" "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

This is where you got the "must stay in the car" idea, because that is what this "shall not apply" provision says.

However, earlier in the code, in that same paragraph we have this:

"The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

That means that the list of exemptions in the CHP section of code also apply to this section of code. Last year, it was this list of exemptions that was updated to include the storage of a loaded firearm in a secured console.

So... to sum up... there are two provisions for carrying a loaded firearm onto school property. The older one says you must stay in your car, and is designed to apply to parents dropping off or picking up kids. The newer one essentially says it doesn't count as a firearm on school property if it is in a secured container, with no restriction on whether you park, get out, etc.

Hope that helps!

TFred


Thanks so much. You and Ed have really helped clear this up for me.
 

Thundar

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Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
As I understand the law I may CC a gun in my car in places such as the glove box, console, gun case or other such container. I also understand that I can not carry the gun into the school but MUST stay in the driveway, round about, or other normal ingress and egress areas.

What is not very clear is can I CC in the parking lot THEN park and leave my firearm CC'ed in the car as I go inside the building?

Are we talking about guns, or just handguns? It makes a diference. The rules for rifles and shotguns are different.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar
 

gearup

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Messages
40
Location
Norfolk
Are we talking about guns, or just handguns? It makes a diference. The rules for rifles and shotguns are different.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

For the purpose of this discussion, I was refering to handguns. Sorry for the confusion.
 

gearup

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Location
Norfolk
So with thse responses in mind, I have another thought.


When is a school NOT considered a school?


The church I attend has one of the biggest private Christian schools in the Tidewater area, Norfolk Christian. Now on Sunday there is obviously no school but how do you draw the distinction betweeh school and church. Some churches use high school auditoriums on Sundays.

Does the concept of "school property" change on the weekend or in the summer months?
 

ProShooter

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Mar 23, 2008
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www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
So with thse responses in mind, I have another thought.


When is a school NOT considered a school?


The church I attend has one of the biggest private Christian schools in the Tidewater area, Norfolk Christian. Now on Sunday there is obviously no school but how do you draw the distinction betweeh school and church. Some churches use high school auditoriums on Sundays.

Does the concept of "school property" change on the weekend or in the summer months?

A school (as defined in 18.2-308.1) is always a school.
 

gearup

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Messages
40
Location
Norfolk
A school (as defined in 18.2-308.1) is always a school.


I'm not so sure. This church owns the property and has a school use its facilities. It is very confusing, for me at least. I would think this has to have been challenged before at some level.
 

peter nap

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Is the Church 1000 feet away from the school. Or is it all one building?

Two entirely different subjects Tanner.

The 1000 ft GFZ is Federal Law and IMO, not enforceable as a primary charge (and has been debated to death here)...the school property is state law and is ON SCHOOL PROPERTY....so the question is really, is it school property even if it shares it with the Church??????

I don't want to be the test case on that one because I think you'd be convicted in the lower courts.
 

Tanner

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May 10, 2012
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Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
Two entirely different subjects Tanner.

The 1000 ft GFZ is Federal Law and IMO, not enforceable as a primary charge (and has been debated to death here)...the school property is state law and is ON SCHOOL PROPERTY....so the question is really, is it school property even if it shares it with the Church??????

I don't want to be the test case on that one because I think you'd be convicted in the lower courts.

Then what came first the chicken or the egg? The church or the school? I cant imagine that it would matter. Like proshooter said "a school is always a school" It seems the only way around it is if the church and school are two different buildings. Im sure there is someting im missing.
 
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