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Thread: CO Shooting

  1. #1
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    CO Shooting

    I'm sure there are posts about this in the colorado pages and you will most likley hear about it elsewhere.. but incase you haven't yet..




    http://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shooti...2#.UAkxnaNdC7s

  2. #2
    Regular Member ken243's Avatar
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    Another reason why no carry zones should be repealed in Michigan and all other states.
    Person in Home Depot: "Do you really think you need that?"
    Me: "I hope not. But then again, I didn't need my seatbelt on the way here either."

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    They got what they voted for.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken243 View Post
    Another reason why no carry zones should be repealed in Michigan and all other states.
    Its why I go to small theaters. Less than 2500 people, to be precise.

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    Regular Member StingMP9's Avatar
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    It's all over every news feed.

    Off Topic: Who takes a 3 month old baby to a midnight movie?
    "Reason can never be popular. Passions and feelings can become popular, but reason will always remain the sole property of a few eminent individuals."
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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    They got what they voted for.
    Howdy Stainless!
    I'm a Coloradoan, and surely do not know of any such vote you refer to.
    Could you please post a reference to such vote that you allude to here?

    The only thing that might have any relevance would be corporate policy prohibiting guns in their theaters.
    There ain't no law prohibiting carry in such places.
    So if you can just post a link to correct my lack of knowledge of C.R.S. code, I'd be very appreciative.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    You arent represented by elected officials that make laws?

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You arent represented by elected officials that make laws?
    Howdy!
    Of course we are. We just don't happen to have voted, as suggested, on any such laws.
    In fact, we haven't got many laws prohibiting carry anywhere in our state outside of Denver, where OC is prohibited.
    City and county buildings. What does that have to do with this incident? There are no laws prohibiting carrying a firearm in public places such as theaters.
    So what is the relevant law? I am purely unaware of any in the Colorado Revised Statutes.
    As it was brought up, as though it is on the books, I'd like to see it in writing. Link, please?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Stainless!
    I'm a Coloradoan, and surely do not know of any such vote you refer to.
    Could you please post a reference to such vote that you allude to here?

    The only thing that might have any relevance would be corporate policy prohibiting guns in their theaters.
    There ain't no law prohibiting carry in such places.
    So if you can just post a link to correct my lack of knowledge of C.R.S. code, I'd be very appreciative.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Please forgive Stainless, he sometimes suffers from verbal diarrhea coupled with a cranial disconnect.

    Back OT. Not sure who takes a 3 month old to a midnight movie. I know I never did. But either way, the whole GFZ concept isn't stopping any crime, only enabling it more and more. I just can't believe that some sheeple still think these GFZ's will keep them safe.
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    Its a PFZ here. My statements aren't necessarily limited to Colorodo. As you can see, people from other states read the Michigan thread.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Its a PFZ here. My statements aren't necessarily limited to Colorodo. As you can see, people from other states read the Michigan thread.
    What do Michigan laws have to do with Colorado laws?
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    Michigan laws frequently affect other parts of the country. As do Kalifornia, New York, and Florida laws, but what does that have to do with it?
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-20-2012 at 10:43 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Assuming you have a gun, what will you do in a crowded theater in heavy smoke with a armored gun man 50 feet away?

    Open fire in the cloudy mist and hope for the best...?

    Or push your family to the ground, lay on them, and pull your firearm to be ready to fire in case he gets close enough for you to have a good shot?

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    Obviously the second option.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Assuming you are not in a "Criminal Empowerment Zone" and you can either CC or OC, and assuming the individual has a rifle, you better pray he doesn't see you before he gets close enough or it won't matter, you are likely dead anyway. Of course if more people were allowed to/chose to be armed odds are he would have been close enough for someone to take the shot.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 07-20-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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  16. #16
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Assuming you are not in a "Criminal Empowerment Zone" and you can either CC or OC, and assuming the individual has a rifle, you better pray he doesn't see you before he gets close enough or it won't matter, you are likely dead anyway. Of course if more people were allowed to/chose to be armed odds are he would have been close enough for someone to take the shot.
    Well, for one, Stainless I didn't think theaters were inherently PFZs unless:
    A: They have a capacity of over 2500 or
    B: They have a liquor license.

    In Michigan, I mean. I am aware this incident happened in CO

    Am I incorrect here?


    Secondly:
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ
    Assuming you have a gun, what will you do in a crowded theater in heavy smoke with a armored gun man 50 feet away?

    Open fire in the cloudy mist and hope for the best...?

    Or push your family to the ground, lay on them, and pull your firearm to be ready to fire in case he gets close enough for you to have a good shot?
    I have been thinking about this, since I'm seeing the movie tonight, and frankly it depends. Is it tiered seating? How smoky was the room? Are you with family who you are responsible for protecting or are you alone? It sounded like the gunman was firing from the aisle into the crowd. Depending on where you were sitting, theres a decent chance of having a clear shot and even decent cover depending on the layout of the theater.

    Just because his chest is armored does not mean his head, arms, and legs are too, and in a situation like that I would think, provided you can do so safely, you should shoot whatever is available, for as long as it is available, until something else becomes available.

    Use your own judgement but look at the sides of the theater in the below picture.



    Best image I could find, but the local Star has walls like this that go from the top of the tiered seating area [about 20 feet up] to about midway though the theater, with the entrances being down that hallway and underneath the seats/projection booth. That setup would allow for decent cover and a relatively clear shooting lane, depending on how obscuring the gas was. Especially considering that, since there are exits on both sides, the crowd will likely run towards the side where the gunman isn't

    ...so, depends on a lot of factors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Well, for one, Stainless I didn't think theaters were inherently PFZs unless:
    A: They have a capacity of over 2500 or
    B: They have a liquor license.

    In Michigan, I mean. I am aware this incident happened in CO

    Am I incorrect here?


    .
    No you're right.

    The most important factor in being able to defend yourself from a gun, is to bring yours.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Excellent points Evil Creamsicle. However why did you quote me then reference Stainless?
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  19. #19
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Excellent points Evil Creamsicle. However why did you quote me then reference Stainless?
    'Cause I couldn't find the reply button, I hit reply with quote on accident. lol.

    Also, I didn't originally quote TheQ, so your quote mentioned CEZ's and the 'do you shoot or not' scenario, both of which I referenced. I responded to Stainless directly though because he originally raised the question.

    ETA: I think its as important to discuss, plan, and practice what to do in a 'crowded room' scenario as it is a back-alley confrontation scenario, since different factors will affect your response. I think this is a very valuable conversation we're having.

    EATA: Also, this is one of those rare scenarios where OC might get you targeted first. Discuss?
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 07-20-2012 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Burritos

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Assuming you have a gun, what will you do in a crowded theater in heavy smoke with a armored gun man 50 feet away?

    Open fire in the cloudy mist and hope for the best...?

    Or push your family to the ground, lay on them, and pull your firearm to be ready to fire in case he gets close enough for you to have a good shot?
    What could of been done to stop this idiot by the armed "good" guys depended on a lot of factors that were specific at the time of incident. However, having several armed people in that theater could of provided an opportunity to take this guy down early enough in a spree.

  21. #21
    Regular Member PFC HALE's Avatar
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    people that feel safe in a gun free zone havent been in the situation to need a gun to defend themself. most that decide to make an establishment gun free is at a high corporate or high manager level and live a sheltered life.

    im sure when SHTF they sure wish their place wasnt gun free cause now there is only one person with a gun... the bad guy.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Nav0341's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    EATA: Also, this is one of those rare scenarios where OC might get you targeted first. Discuss?
    I originally thought so myself. But OC would have probably been an advantage in this scenario. The room is dark and everyone is seated, once the incident began and panic ensued, I think it would have been easier to draw from an OC standpoint. Even OC'ing you would have been "concealed" from the gunman's view.
    Last edited by Nav0341; 07-20-2012 at 01:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    EATA: Also, this is one of those rare scenarios where OC might get you targeted first. Discuss?

    I don't believe so, for a couple of reasons. The first being that the majority, if not all of the occupants were seated, in a dark room. Either of those two alone make it hard to see a firearm, both of them combined are pretty much up there with concealed carry -- with the obvious exception that it's much easier to draw from OC while seated than from CC (at the very least IWB CC).

    The second is something somebody else pointed out... how did he get as far as the seated theater without raising any concern? Maybe I'm unfamiliar with this particular theater, but someone suggested he came in an emergency exit... do they not automatically set off alarms, or did he have the door rigged? Anyways, the point is he must have entered fairly fast. He had no time to segregate his targets or look for potential threats. His mission was to kill. Regardless of mask, the tear gas would have made it hard for him to pick individual targets so much as "moving targets" and had you been OCing he was not going to notice until the bullet hit him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nav0341 View Post
    I originally thought so myself. But OC would have probably been an advantage in this scenario. The room is dark and everyone is seated, once the incident began and panic ensued, I think it would have been easier to draw from an OC standpoint. Even OC'ing you would have been "concealed" from the gunman's view.
    Quote Originally Posted by mwaterous View Post
    I don't believe so, for a couple of reasons. The first being that the majority, if not all of the occupants were seated, in a dark room. Either of those two alone make it hard to see a firearm, both of them combined are pretty much up there with concealed carry -- with the obvious exception that it's much easier to draw from OC while seated than from CC (at the very least IWB CC).

    The second is something somebody else pointed out... how did he get as far as the seated theater without raising any concern? Maybe I'm unfamiliar with this particular theater, but someone suggested he came in an emergency exit... do they not automatically set off alarms, or did he have the door rigged? Anyways, the point is he must have entered fairly fast. He had no time to segregate his targets or look for potential threats. His mission was to kill. Regardless of mask, the tear gas would have made it hard for him to pick individual targets so much as "moving targets" and had you been OCing he was not going to notice until the bullet hit him.
    This makes sense. In this scenario. However would it be a problem if he, say, wasn't wearing a mask. Or if it was during the previews when the lights are on?

    This is just a thought exercise. I generally agree that with that number of people it probably wouldn't be the first thing noticed. It is completely different than if, say, the criminal was concealing, and observing the environment, before opening fire.

    As far as the emergency exit goes, in most theaters, the emergency exits are not off the main lobby, they are at the end of the branching hallways that contain the theaters. Alarm or no, emergency exit to theater entrance was probably 30 feet or less. I read a news article that confirmed that he did enter through an emergency exit, btw, so I think its a fact.
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 07-20-2012 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Quoting NAV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    This is just a thought exercise. I generally agree that with that number of people it probably wouldn't be the first thing noticed. It is completely different than if, say, the criminal was concealing, and observing the environment, before opening fire.
    Here's my take on it; I may just be a target, but I'm not worried about that. I'd rather show the criminals that there are people willing to defend themselves (and others, given the opportunity), and show the people unwilling to defend themselves that they can. There's two of us OC'ing. We become his prime targets. The fact that there are guns present that can fire back rattles him, JUST a little. While he's shooting at me, the other guy OCing takes him out. In a perfect world.

    Here's the other thing to consider. If you're up against an opponent that has his wits about him and the training to obtain and terminate specific targets... you're pretty much boned no matter what. I won't disarm for that one in a million scenario and hope I never have to find out what it's like to be part of such a shooting!

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