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  1. #1
    Regular Member newbie's Avatar
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    Exclamation Quick question...

    Last week at Walmart in west bend I Was loading my stuff in the trunk of my car, I heard someone yell something to me from about 30-40 feet away. I turned around and said what and the three guys imidiatly started talking crap no idea what about so I kept doing what I was doing then they said something about my wife so I turned around and told these punks to shut the f up. The three guys then started running at me while I was loading the trunk of the car my girlfriend told me to turn around and I quickly grabbed my pistol from the trunk unloaded I pulled it out and put it down by my side and turned around. Is that justifiable reason to pull it out? If I had the few extra sec I would have loaded the gun.

    Now I figured it would have been justified because I thought these kids were going to beat my ass, and after the gun came out the split so fast. I told my friend about this today and he said I could have got in a lot of trouble.

    Now was I in the wrong or right?

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    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbie View Post
    Last week at Walmart in west bend I Was loading my stuff in the trunk of my car, I heard someone yell something to me from about 30-40 feet away. I turned around and said what and the three guys imidiatly started talking crap no idea what about so I kept doing what I was doing then they said something about my wife so I turned around and told these punks to shut the f up. The three guys then started running at me while I was loading the trunk of the car my girlfriend told me to turn around and I quickly grabbed my pistol from the trunk unloaded I pulled it out and put it down by my side and turned around. Is that justifiable reason to pull it out? If I had the few extra sec I would have loaded the gun.

    Now I figured it would have been justified because I thought these kids were going to beat my ass, and after the gun came out the split so fast. I told my friend about this today and he said I could have got in a lot of trouble.

    Now was I in the wrong or right?
    in my opinion, and IANAL if you felt intimidated enough and you believed there was a emanate threat to you or your g/f and felt it was justifiable then who am i to tell you it wasn't. I cannot tell anyone they were or were not scared just as you cant truly prove if someone was scared or not. its what the person felt and no one can tell you how you feel. But at the same time i will say and take this with a grain of salt, that instead of escalating the situation by saying shut the f up try to de escalate the situation, you don't know these guys, and don't know if there illegally or legally armed. i understand the male wanting to defend his womans name thing all to well but you have to try to use some restraint when dealing with the general Sheeple. if that makes much sense.
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    The reason why I wasn't sure if it was justified because I said that. But these three punks all much bigger then me wouldnt stop talking crap and making a ton of Mexican jokes at me. Now I'm not Mexican I'm native so it wasn't bothering me to much until they said something about my prego wife. I can take the bashing against me from these racists but they called her a race traitor and just so much stupid crap that iv never heard in my life I have no idea why the hell they even chose us to talk crap to and the other people standing around we're in awe from these teens/young adults.

    Now I'm not much of a fighter I'm about 170lbs these guys each one a bit taller then me the smallest one was about 180-190 the other two were about my brothers size so I'd say 220+ now when they all started running over "charging" me is when I had enough and pulled out the gun acted like it was loaded out it by my side and pulled back the hammer. Now if they would have called my bluff I think I would have for sure got the crap kicked out of me my wife locked herself in the car when she seen them start running at me.

    When I told this to my buddie who's also a pro-gun guy he said I could have to into a lot of trouble and if the police were there that I would be fined and maybe have lost my gun. Now I don't know every detail of the law but I felt like I was in the right. But a good point was that I told them to shut the f up, and that it could be taken as provoking them.

    I just wanted to see what others thought of this.

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    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbie View Post
    The reason why I wasn't sure if it was justified because I said that. But these three punks all much bigger then me wouldnt stop talking crap and making a ton of Mexican jokes at me. Now I'm not Mexican I'm native so it wasn't bothering me to much until they said something about my prego wife. I can take the bashing against me from these racists but they called her a race traitor and just so much stupid crap that iv never heard in my life I have no idea why the hell they even chose us to talk crap to and the other people standing around we're in awe from these teens/young adults.

    Now I'm not much of a fighter I'm about 170lbs these guys each one a bit taller then me the smallest one was about 180-190 the other two were about my brothers size so I'd say 220+ now when they all started running over "charging" me is when I had enough and pulled out the gun acted like it was loaded out it by my side and pulled back the hammer. Now if they would have called my bluff I think I would have for sure got the crap kicked out of me my wife locked herself in the car when she seen them start running at me.

    When I told this to my buddie who's also a pro-gun guy he said I could have to into a lot of trouble and if the police were there that I would be fined and maybe have lost my gun. Now I don't know every detail of the law but I felt like I was in the right. But a good point was that I told them to shut the f up, and that it could be taken as provoking them.

    I just wanted to see what others thought of this.
    ill be perfectly clear just so no one takes my words out of context, in my opinion you did indeed provoke them into a further confrontation by saying anything provocative to them but thats just me. I'm not saying you don't have the right to defend yourself even by saying something I'm just saying its the way or attitude in which you say it that can be looked at as provoking. its much better to try to calm defuse the situation before you have to make a life changing for you and them decision. again just my opinion
    Last edited by LoneEchoWolf; 07-21-2012 at 03:33 AM.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneEchoWolf View Post
    ill be perfectly clear just so no one takes my words out of context, in my opinion you did indeed provoke them into a further confronta....
    This...
    To be innocent of instigation and an unwilling participant is a good rule to go by when you are even armed with deadly force. Your conduct was arguably disorderly when you started to yell and use profanity. "Defending your honor" because someone said something you did not like is not a justifiable reason to use force.
    Your best bet is to ignore words other than direct physical threats but keep a close eye on where they are. Most of the time they will get bored and walk away. If you stare them down or otherwise negatively react you are encouraging this animal behavior because they are getting their intended result.

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    The F word is a always a good way to start a fight and not a good way to avoid one.

    Much better to say nothing.

    If they continue towards you STOP, STAY BACK, DON'T COME ANY CLOSER tend to work better..

    Ones mouth can very easy get one into trouble or out of trouble.

    Be careful what you say as eery thing you say before or after a defensive use can and well be use against you.

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    I agree with what all has been said about you helping the situation along with your words, however, I would have also prepared myself for being attacked when they started coming nearer. I would rather have been in trouble with the law then to take a beating and put my wife at risk.
    "Democracy..... Is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,
    Liberty..... Is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    Benjamin Franklin

  8. #8
    Regular Member wmodavis's Avatar
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    And....
    What good would an empty gun have been? Guess you could hope they'd run or you could hit them with it.

  9. #9
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    never respond to scum, it empowers them. 3 potential attackers advancing on you? shields up, ready on main phaser banks. your actions look good to me.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmodavis View Post
    And....
    What good would an empty gun have been? Guess you could hope they'd run or you could hit them with it.
    they didnt know that.

    the burgers have left the building.
    Last edited by McX; 07-21-2012 at 11:58 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    semi-newbie, how'd it turn out? Did the threat stop? Details on what happened.

  12. #12
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    I agree with what others have brought up. Try your best to not respond in any way that any witnesses (in court) could say was provoking.

    The only thing I could add is are questions.
    Why in the world was your gun unloaded, and why was it in your car?
    Do you have a WI CCL? If not, I would get one. If you have one, carry more often. If you would have needed a gun, it sounds like you were not ready (unloaded).
    I am just happy you and yours are OK.

  13. #13
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    When the ran to me I was pumped Up and shaking a bit hoping they were not there before I could get it out. The case has a key lock and I always keep a pistol in the trunk of my car and my carry gun was left at home. The gun was empty but right next to it in the case was 2 loaded mags.

    As soon as they got close to me I had just the empty gun out. I put the gun down by my side and the three guys split all different ways in the parking lot. Now i can care less what people call me I was raised with 2 brothers I can take a few mean words. But my wife is 8 months prego and I do not want her to be in danger and when there words started to target her I got pissed off. If they gave me a few extra sec I would have had the gun loaded but I still would not have pointed at them.

    Now I felt %100 that I needed to take out my firearm to defuse this before I was laying on the ground beat. I don't know if some of you remember me from the classes but I'm not a big guy at all and if it was a single guy I would have kept the gun in the car. Then I would have a chance but with three of them I won't lie I was scared...

  14. #14
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    I was worried about me getting my ass kicked and them possibly hurting the unborn baby, now I don't know what they would do but with all the racist comments and then them verbally attacking her I have no idea what they would have done. If I went back to the day I wouldn't change a single thing. I felt that it was needed.

    And to clear another thing up, when I told them to shut the f up. I didn't scream it on the top of my lungs. I said it just loud enough to where they could hear me. And I turned back around continuing to load my car. That's when I was warned that they were charging towards me.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    I personally never trade words with bugs, but that aside your actions were perfect. The gun being brought into view saved you and your girls life (the way I hear it). The bugs are lucky (unlucky for society) to be alive.

    Play it out in your head what probably would have happened if the gun wasn't available. Never doubt what you did was right.

    Also never doubt our twisted justice system may have pork'd you for being ready to defend yourself. It's the sad state we live in.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    I would hate to view what may have happend I may be young but iv got a vary bad hip so I'm in no way able to get into a fist fight to protect myself. If I even fell on the ground I wouldn't be able to walk around for the next week. I was in a bad motorcycle accident last year that broke my hip in 3 different places. I was vary ticked off after because there was 4 other guys there that just watched these people harrase me and watched it play out like a show on tv. I know i was wrong to say something but it was just them pushing so much to get a rise out of us. And it's crappy I had to resort to my gun. That's the first time iv ever even had to show it to anyone to save myself. I hope these punks learned there lesson not to try doing this to a complete stranger.

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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbie View Post
    Now i can care less what people call me I was raised with 2 brothers I can take a few mean words. But my wife is 8 months prego and I do not want her to be in danger and when there words started to target her I got pissed off. If they gave me a few extra sec I would have had the gun loaded but I still would not have pointed at them.
    It's a different world than it used to be. Men don't get to "defend a woman's honor" like in the old days. You increasing the tension of the situation just because you got pissed off at them saying words to her helped bring about them coming closer and you pulling a gun. Your wife wasn't in any real danger until you escalated things.
    Last edited by DangerClose; 07-22-2012 at 02:42 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    It's a different world than it used to be. Men don't get to "defend a woman's honor" like in the old days. You increasing the tension of the situation just because you got pissed off at them saying words to her helped bring about them coming closer and you pulling a gun. Your wife wasn't in any real danger until you escalated things.
    I'm not sure I get what your saying here. You think I escalated things that far by telling them to shut up.

    I think in the heat of the moment me telling them to or not they were out to start a fight if isaid something or not. That's why the picked me a complete stranger to target. I think me saying something or not they would have still ended up coming to me.


    You think three guys talking crap to a complete stranger would drop it of I kept on going doing what I was? The racist attacks in there words they knew what they were doing.

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    Newbie:

    It is easy for many of us to stand back and play armchair quarterback and say should've, would've, could've but we weren't there.

    Your question brings up the flaws in our thinking and legal system. The laws intimidate the law abiding more then the criminals. Those three men weren't worried about the law but as you have pointed out you were. This is the problem with passing laws to try to prevent crime rather than punish crime. A man has the right to defend family. The fact that they rushed at you showed their intent and there was disparity of force, it's a shame that you even had to question wether or not you would be the one loosing your firearm, fines or jail etc. smacks of the shame we have been brainwashed into. You didn't point nor pursued you simply used the best way you could to defuse. Unfortunately, many laws are written so that once you pull a firearm you have to use said firearm or it's brandishing. Then you have to justify why you used it.

    As you can see even an unloaded gun is better then no gun. Do you think they would have messed with you if you were OC given the fact they scattered at the sight of an unloaded firearm? Yes, the sight of a gun makes people nerves and I like it that way because it gives the criminal something to think about.

    I don't have the answer to your question but I believe it is a mindset that needs to be changes in society: the fear of law abiding citizens protecting themselves and loved ones wondering if they will be arrested. As you said you could have been beat, your wife raped etc. and those few seconds of decision making could've been all it took.
    Last edited by Packer fan; 07-22-2012 at 06:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newbie View Post
    I'm not sure I get what your saying here. You think I escalated things that far by telling them to shut up.

    I think in the heat of the moment me telling them to or not they were out to start a fight if isaid something or not. That's why the picked me a complete stranger to target. I think me saying something or not they would have still ended up coming to me.


    You think three guys talking crap to a complete stranger would drop it of I kept on going doing what I was? The racist attacks in there words they knew what they were doing.
    Yes very much you escalated things by telling them to "shut the f--kup"

    Having delt with dozens of situations like this I can tell you, you escalated it.

    The bet way to handle this type of situation is to ignore them but keep a very watchfull eye on them if the continue to talk let them. If they move in closer and look like they are going to attack good command language. While prepareing to defend oneself not only lets them know you will not go easy but also sets up a good legal defense if you have to hurt them.

    Its amazeing how much a judge or jury loves to hear that you gave them a out before you did what you needed to do.

    I told them to stop, I told them to leave me alone. I told them to back off. When they continued to press their attack I had no choice but to------- fill in the blank.

    Useing profane language will get you nothing good. The bad guys, the cops,the judge and jury see that as nothing but escalating.

    Wittnesses can be very usefull they heard you say stop leave me alone or they heard Shut the **** up.

    What to yo want them to hear.

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    FI is correct in his statements even though to you it may be a tough chew to swallow. The Wisconsin Castle doctrine does not provide for presumption of innocence while out in public.You were outside your vehicle so you were not protected by the Castle Doctrine. You would still have had to prove privilege of defense if the event would have escalated to use of deadly force. To prove self defense you must convince the courts that you were in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death. The fact you were insulted and the youths were walking towards you without weapons would raise many questions in court. You mentioned if you had afew more seconds you may have loaded your firearm. If loaded what may you have done then. We made enormous gains in firearm freedom last year, but the Wisconsin courts still take use of deadly force very serious.

    FI is also correct that your actions could be seen as provocation if the encounter had become ugly. Shouting profanities in public could be seen as disorderly conduct as well. Standing with an unholstered firearm in your hand (doesn't matter if it's loaded or unloaded) could be seen as a violation of state law that reads it is unlawful to intentionally point a firearm at another individual. Sometimes it's difficult to "count to ten", especially if a loved one is involved, but if the action is only words, sometimes count to ten we must.

    What should you do First; read the latest state firearm laws, especially those enumerated in 11Act35. Also read the latest version of ss167.31. It is no longer unlawful to carry a visible loaded handgun in a vehicle (as of Nov. 19, 2011). Second; get a concealed carry license. If you have a clean background it's easy to do. Makes life a lot easier when carrying in a vehicle or near schools. More than likely the very sight of a holstered handgun on your hip would have sent the scum packing without need of you saying any words. Third; be aware of which businesses are gun friendly. Walmart is one of them. You did not need to place your gun in the trunk of your vehicle before entering WalMart. Fourth; (and this applies to all of us) Do not carry a firearm around for decoration. This is serious business.

    Finally, I'm glad this incident resolved peacefully. I hope luck is on your side and you grow very old without experiencing another.

  22. #22
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbie View Post
    You think three guys talking crap to a complete stranger would drop it of I kept on going doing what I was?
    They didn't run towards you until you said something, so yeah.

    Is that a guarantee they wouldn't have still ran at you? No. But not swearing back at them would have had a higher probability of them not running at you.

    Basically, if you're willing to pull out a gun, you don't get the luxury of being pissed off just because someone says mean words.

    I think pulling it out as they ran at you was the right thing to do, though.

  23. #23
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Thumbs up +1 Firearms Instructor

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Yes very much you escalated things by telling them to "shut the f--kup"

    Having delt with dozens of situations like this I can tell you, you escalated it.

    The bet way to handle this type of situation is to ignore them but keep a very watchfull eye on them if the continue to talk let them. If they move in closer and look like they are going to attack good command language. While prepareing to defend oneself not only lets them know you will not go easy but also sets up a good legal defense if you have to hurt them.

    Its amazeing how much a judge or jury loves to hear that you gave them a out before you did what you needed to do.

    I told them to stop, I told them to leave me alone. I told them to back off. When they continued to press their attack I had no choice but to------- fill in the blank.

    Useing profane language will get you nothing good. The bad guys, the cops,the judge and jury see that as nothing but escalating.

    Wittnesses can be very usefull they heard you say stop leave me alone or they heard Shut the **** up.

    What to yo want them to hear.
    +1 - there Firearms Instructor!

    @Newbie - I too am a firearms instructor and agree completely that your statement had the potential to be seen as inflammatory by police or a jury. However, it did not justify the other men rushing you - potentially to attack you. Still, as FI points out above, it would have been better if those words had never been uttered. I understand your desire to think yourself justified, but in truth, it really would have been better to not have responded to their taunts.

    The bottom line is that you displayed a handgun and the potential attackers dispersed. In my opinion, you did the right thing, but could have done it much better.

    Like FI, I teach my students to use loud words of defense such as "Stop", "Don't come any closer", "Leave me alone", if time and circumstances allow and preferably within hearing distance of potential witnesses. If you have to use deadly force to defend yourself or others, it is best if you have "clean hands".

    The phrase that I often use in class is: Life in danger - shoot the stranger. No danger yet, you better get - the Police. Unless the danger to self or others is imminent and real, it really is best to allow the Police to earn their pay. Now I will ask the question that others have not - did you report this incident to the proper authorities? After all, the bad guys could tell Police that you assaulted them with a handgun when they were minding their own business.

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  24. #24
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    "Defending your honor" because someone said something you did not like is not a justifiable reason to use force.
    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose
    not swearing back at them would have had a higher probability of them not running at you.
    ...you don't get the luxury of being pissed off just because someone says mean words.
    Quote Originally Posted by newbie
    wouldnt stop talking crap and making a ton of Mexican jokes at me...
    it wasn't bothering me too much until they said something about my prego pregnant wife...
    when there their words started to target her I got pissed off...
    I know i was wrong to say something but it was just them pushing so much to get a rise out of us.
    So? They're talking. Nothing they say is an imminent threat to your lives, especially if they weren't close enough to do anything about it.
    When they escalated to running toward you, THAT was a threat.
    (I would like to have seen the skid marks they left in their haste to run away.)

    if the police were there that I would be fined and maybe have lost my gun.
    ...I told them to shut the f up, and that it could be taken as provoking them.
    In Milwaukee, definitely the first.
    Anywhere, definitely the second.

    Quote Originally Posted by IK
    Your best bet is to ignore words other than direct physical threats but keep a close eye on where they are. Most of the time they will get bored and walk away. If you stare them down or otherwise negatively react you are encouraging this animal behavior because they are getting their intended result.
    What he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose
    Men don't get to "defend a woman's honor" like in the old days. You increasing the tension of the situation just because you got pissed off at them saying words to her helped bring about them coming closer and you pulling a gun. Your wife wasn't in any real danger until you escalated things.
    And what he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by newbie
    You think I escalated things that far by telling them to shut up.
    You think three guys talking crap to a complete stranger would drop it if I kept on doing what I was?
    Yes, and yes.
    They wanted a reaction. You gave them one.
    They may have come at you anyway, but you guaranteed that they would.

    Last Friday afternoon I was targeted by a pack of about 15 feral urban ethnic youth, just a couple houses away from my home.
    I had slowed at the intersection to check for traffic, they saw me, one started running at me, & was close enough he could have reached me if I hadn't sped up.
    I am positive that if I'd done anything other than speed up he would have managed to knock me over & they would have all been on me & my motorcycle.
    But it looked like I ignored them completely - other than looking that way to check for traffic I didn't even look at them (that they could tell... peripheral vision is a wonderful thing).
    Actually, I was a little surprised they didn't follow to my house & come up the driveway at me. That would have been painful for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Packer fan
    you simply used the best way you could to defuse.
    Problem was, he escalated first.

    many laws are written so that once you pull a firearm you have to use said firearm or it's brandishing.
    Not WI laws.
    a) there's no such thing as brandishing
    b) 939.48 allows the threat of any force, or the use of non-deadly force, in self-defense.
    In order to use deadly force, one must be in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.
    A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person.
    The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference.
    The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.
    Standing with an unholstered firearm in your hand (doesn't matter if it's loaded or unloaded) could be seen as a violation of state law that reads it is unlawful to intentionally point a firearm at another individual.
    In hand /= pointing
    And it's lawful if that show of force is used to stop an attack ("unlawful interference").

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo
    The fact you were insulted and the youths were walking towards you without weapons would raise many questions in court.
    I don't think the disparity of force would have been questioned, especially considering his stated medical condition.
    But him escalating would be a problem.

    167.31 It is no longer unlawful to carry a visible loaded handgun in a vehicle (as of Nov. 19, 2011).
    167.31 changed for pistols as of 01NOV11.
    Long guns were allowed to be unencased (as long as they're unloaded) as of 19NOV.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 07-22-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  25. #25
    Regular Member newbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    west bend
    Posts
    148
    Maybe i was in the wrong for cussing at them. I dot want to sound like a tard and justifie myself. But I'll try to paint a better picture.

    About 6pm Walmart parking lot.

    I leave the store my wife not feeling good she's leaning against the passenger side of the car door open because the car was baking hot.
    I'm unloading a packed cart into the car. Right across the row like te vary next row there truck and my car was the gap between rows. I get about 1/4th of the cart into the trunk. I hear the first comment. I look blow it off, then the others joined in. Now all of them are saying crap and talking over each other. Still standing at there truck I'm about 1/2 way done loading the food in the trunk. I start to relies these guys are not doing it for fun. I pull the keys from the trunk lock to access my gun safe box in the trunk. At this point I still have not opened the box. They start saying stuff to my wife about being a race traitor and some other crap about how she should be with a white man. Now they are all targeting her. I have the key to my box in my hand. I say shut the f up. They rush at me. I unlocked that box so fast at this point with only sec to spare.

    Now I do have my ccl thanks to the guys on this site and I do iv and cc this is one of the days I did not carry .

    I am outdoors a lot so I do keep a spare gun in a lock box in my trunk.

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