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Thread: OC with no CHP restrictions

  1. #1
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    OC with no CHP restrictions

    I applied for CHP renewal (Prince William County) only 3 weeks before it's expiration date, so there is a pretty good chance that I'll go without a permit for a few weeks. The question I have is what are additional restrictions on carry when I don't have a permit. Whenever I OCd before I always had a CHP and I know it waived some of the restrictions, but I never looked into the details.

    Also, whenever I wasn't sure if OC is Ok I'd just CC and not think much about it, but now I won't have this option. So if you guys can give me some information on what to watch out for and what new GFZ to avoid, I'd really appreciate it.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaingun81 View Post
    I applied for CHP renewal (Prince William County) only 3 weeks before it's expiration date, so there is a pretty good chance that I'll go without a permit for a few weeks. The question I have is what are additional restrictions on carry when I don't have a permit. Whenever I OCd before I always had a CHP and I know it waived some of the restrictions, but I never looked into the details.

    Also, whenever I wasn't sure if OC is Ok I'd just CC and not think much about it, but now I won't have this option. So if you guys can give me some information on what to watch out for and what new GFZ to avoid, I'd really appreciate it.
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/at...7&d=1332675558

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    Last edited by peter nap; 07-22-2012 at 02:26 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/at...7&d=1332675558

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    Who maintains this file? It's still dated March. No July update?

    TFred

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Prince William is pretty quick about getting your renewed permit out to you. I just did mine last month and it took 17 days.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/at...7&d=1332675558

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    Thanks for the link Peter, this helps greatly. I have a couple of specific questions.

    1) National Parks and National Forests - can I OC in VA NPs and NFs without a CHP?
    2) Vehicle carry. I know VA passed a law that allows to have a loaded handgun in a locked compartment without a CHP - is glove compartment or center console ok? Does it actually have to be locked or just closed?
    3) Is it ok to have the handgun on the hip in OWB holster while sitting in the vehicle? Basically, same way that I'd OC outside, but it's much less visible while inside a vehicle, especially a tall one (like truck/SUV)?
    4) Federal GFSZ. I know the CHP exception for driving into an actual school zone in a vehicle, but what about the 1000 feet around the school zone rule? To clarify, I'm not going into any actual school zones, all I'm worried about is unknowingly crossing into one of these larger 1000 feet "buffer" zones while driving by the school on a public road.
    5) State/County parks - are those Ok without a CHP?

    Thanks again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Prince William is pretty quick about getting your renewed permit out to you. I just did mine last month and it took 17 days.
    This is good to know, I was hoping it would be quicker than 45 days allowed by law. I asked the court clerk about the actual average processing times and she said it will probably be pretty close to full 45 days because they currently receive about 100 applications per week and are pretty swamped. 17 day turnaround only a month ago sounds much more promising.

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaingun81 View Post
    Thanks for the link Peter, this helps greatly. I have a couple of specific questions.

    1) National Parks and National Forests - can I OC in VA NPs and NFs without a CHP?
    2) Vehicle carry. I know VA passed a law that allows to have a loaded handgun in a locked compartment without a CHP - is glove compartment or center console ok? Does it actually have to be locked or just closed? Law says secured in a compartment NOT a Locked compartment. Glove Compartment or Center Console is fine.
    3) Is it ok to have the handgun on the hip in OWB holster while sitting in the vehicle? Yes Basically, same way that I'd OC outside, but it's much less visible while inside a vehicle, especially a tall one (like truck/SUV)?
    4) Federal GFSZ. I know the CHP exception for driving into an actual school zone in a vehicle, but what about the 1000 feet around the school zone rule? To clarify, I'm not going into any actual school zones, all I'm worried about is unknowingly crossing into one of these larger 1000 feet "buffer" zones while driving by the school on a public road. Grey area - to my knowledge this is only uspile ona pileon charge. Was found unconstitutional once then rewritten but has not been challenged again
    5) State/County parks - are those Ok without a CHP? All local parks ok. IIRC McDonald made it legal in all state parks

    Thanks again!
    I'm sure someone knowlegable than I will answer other questions and correct me if my befuddled brain is miss-remembering and becareful.

    John
    Last edited by Wolf_shadow; 07-25-2012 at 12:58 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaingun81 View Post
    This is good to know, I was hoping it would be quicker than 45 days allowed by law. I asked the court clerk about the actual average processing times and she said it will probably be pretty close to full 45 days because they currently receive about 100 applications per week and are pretty swamped. 17 day turnaround only a month ago sounds much more promising.
    My last renew, 2007, took 23 days in this county.

    "4) Federal GFSZ. I know the CHP exception for driving into an actual school zone in a vehicle, but what about the 1000 feet around the school zone rule? To clarify, I'm not going into any actual school zones, all I'm worried about is unknowingly crossing into one of these larger 1000 feet "buffer" zones while driving by the school on a public road."

    This has been a bit of a bone of contention over a number of threads which tends to leave it up to one's interpretation. Basically the federal law does not apply, in regards to your question, if;

    "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"

    Here is the rub. Notice the words, "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located". In Virginia, there is no such thing as a license to possess a firearm so basically none of this applies to us. This would seem to mean that since these exceptions don't apply then we are NOT exempt from carrying within the 1000 foot limit from a school. However to my knowledge, this has never been an issue here in Virginia.

    Now I tend to read things very literally and accept the fact that words have meaning and others may see this differently. But the phrase, "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located in which the school zone is located" is pretty clear to me and it controls everything that follows in this enumerated section. Most will say that having your CHP exempts you from this law but that is not what it says. It clearly states "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State".

    I think you'll find that most everyone on these forums will tell you not to worry about this anyway.


    "3) Is it ok to have the handgun on the hip in OWB holster while sitting in the vehicle? Yes Basically, same way that I'd OC outside, but it's much less visible while inside a vehicle, especially a tall one (like truck/SUV)?"

    Yes, it is fine to have your sidearm openly carried in your holster while in your vehicle. Think about it this way. Suppose you were standing at a magazine or book rack in a store and an LEO approached you on your weak side. He is not going to see your gun unless he moves around to your strong side. Does this mean you are trying to conceal your gun? Or suppose you are seated at a booth in a restaurant and your strong side is to the wall. Are you concealing your gun when doing this? The answer is a resounding "no" to both scenarios. Same thing if you are sitting in or driving a vehicle.

    Your intent is clearly to carry the gun openly and you have made no effort to deliberately conceal the gun from "common observation". If, on the other hand, you were stopped by an LEO and as he was sitting in his cruiser reporting the stop, you decided to cover your gun with your shirt tail then yes, you would be concealing it deliberately and that would not be legal.

    And BTW, INAL.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 07-25-2012 at 05:49 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  9. #9
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    "4) Federal GFSZ. I know the CHP exception for driving into an actual school zone in a vehicle, but what about the 1000 feet around the school zone rule? To clarify, I'm not going into any actual school zones, all I'm worried about is unknowingly crossing into one of these larger 1000 feet "buffer" zones while driving by the school on a public road."

    This has been a bit of a bone of contention over a number of threads which tends to leave it up to one's interpretation. Basically the federal law does not apply, in regards to your question, if;

    "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"

    Here is the rub. Notice the words, "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located". In Virginia, there is no such thing as a license to possess a firearm so basically none of this applies to us. This would seem to mean that since these exceptions don't apply then we are NOT exempt from carrying within the 1000 foot limit from a school. However to my knowledge, this has never been an issue here in Virginia.

    Now I tend to read things very literally and accept the fact that words have meaning and others may see this differently. But the phrase, "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located in which the school zone is located" is pretty clear to me and it controls everything that follows in this enumerated section. Most will say that having your CHP exempts you from this law but that is not what it says. It clearly states "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State".

    I think you'll find that most everyone on these forums will tell you not to worry about this anyway.


    "3) Is it ok to have the handgun on the hip in OWB holster while sitting in the vehicle? Yes Basically, same way that I'd OC outside, but it's much less visible while inside a vehicle, especially a tall one (like truck/SUV)?"

    Yes, it is fine to have your sidearm openly carried in your holster while in your vehicle. Think about it this way. Suppose you were standing at a magazine or book rack in a store and an LEO approached you on your weak side. He is not going to see your gun unless he moves around to your strong side. Does this mean you are trying to conceal your gun? Or suppose you are seated at a booth in a restaurant and your strong side is to the wall. Are you concealing your gun when doing this? The answer is a resounding "no" to both scenarios. Same thing if you are sitting in or driving a vehicle.

    Your intent is clearly to carry the gun openly and you have made no effort to deliberately conceal the gun from "common observation". If, on the other hand, you were stopped by an LEO and as he was sitting in his cruiser reporting the stop, you decided to cover your gun with your shirt tail then yes, you would be concealing it deliberately and that would not be legal.

    And BTW, INAL.

    Agreed..

    I do it all the time.. Infact I did it yesterday evening in full view of our County Sheriff (the real one) at our BoS meeting, they are held across the street from the school complex, well under 1000 ft.
    When I lived in NoVA I usually walked my kids to school, Fairfax PD and PW didn't have issues.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I do it all the time.. Infact I did it yesterday evening in full view of our County Sheriff (the real one) at our BoS meeting, they are held across the street from the school complex, well under 1000 ft.
    When I lived in NoVA I usually walked my kids to school, Fairfax PD and PW didn't have issues.
    I agree that this is not a particularly important issue in Virginia, but I would also point out that your anecdote doesn't really apply to the situation either, since the GFSZA is a Federal law and it is rare or never that local (city, county, state) LEOs would enforce that. At least that is what many others have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Here is the rub. Notice the words, "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located". In Virginia, there is no such thing as a license to possess a firearm so basically none of this applies to us. This would seem to mean that since these exceptions don't apply then we are NOT exempt from carrying within the 1000 foot limit from a school. However to my knowledge, this has never been an issue here in Virginia.
    Good point, and one I'm surprised I've never considered before. I've always been hung up on the meaning of the word "licensed" (i.e. a "license" is an intangible state of being allowed to do something, and is not a piece of paper, which IMHO does allow for the use of reciprocal concealed handgun permits to be exempt from the GFSZA.)

    But your observation is much cleaner and to be honest, might even be a good avenue to get the entire law tossed out on 2nd Amendment violations, since as you note, in Virginia, it becomes literally impossible to comply, and as we have long observed, it is virtually impossible to live a normal life outside of the 1000 foot radius of a public school.

    TFred

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