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Thread: Forum user experience needed

  1. #1
    Regular Member Orion's Avatar
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    Forum user experience needed

    Yesterday I made my first OC trip to the Clinton Twsp. Sec of State. It was near closing time and I just wanted to get some information. I will be returning later this week to handle some paperwork. When I entered the Security guard questioned me as to whether I was licensed, and I told him I was. I know, none of his business but he was being friendly and I responded in kind. At that point he asked me to return the firearm to my vehicle. When I inquired as to why he stated that there were a large number of children in attendance and he didn't want them to get a hold of it or have it go off. I told him guns do not go off by themselves and that I find his argument about the children to be both facetious and offensive. I told him I was there merely to ask a question, would not be long and had no intention of disarming. He then requested that I stand next to him until someone could address my question. I did not have an issue with that and I was out of there in less than 5 minutes. However, since I will be going back and will likely have to wait in line, should this be brought up again how should I respond to make it clear that I am fully within my rights under the law, and will not be deterred by foolish arguments? I know that he does not have the authority to require me to vacate the premises, or to disarm, and I am looking for relevant statutes to cite to make my case. I am hoping this will be handled in a professional and respectful manner, and will not be escalated, but if I need to press my case should he be obstinate or if the police should be called I want to be able to make my case in a concise and accurate manner.
    Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance to any and all who respond.

  2. #2
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    mcl 123.1102, bring a copy of it.

    make sure he knows that if he tries to make you leave, he is violating the law and could be subject to termination and/or criminal charges even, make sure you show him the copy of the law.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Well if you give a little notice we could probably rustle up several folks to oc with you. I think you just ran into some power tripping renta cop. I have heard of a SOS rep calling the police on a man filming them in Taylor. When TPD arrived the man explained he was exercising his rights & that since SOS was filming citizens why should they have a problem being filmed. TPD being the hero's they are promptly arrested him.

    Point being there is strength in numbers, thugs will always single out the lone person to make an example of.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

  4. #4
    Regular Member Orion's Avatar
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    Glock, he was definitely trying to assert his authority over me, even though doesn't really have any, and I didn't have the time to argue with him that day. I was planning on going Tuesday or Wednesday after work, about 4:30. Tuesday they close at 5, but Wednesday thay are open till 7. I don't want to make a big show of force about this but I would feel more comfortable if I had someone else there who had more experience in dealing with thses kinds of things. I've been carrying for about a year and while I have been noticed by police I haven't yet had any intercation with them, which is how it should be. I am not looking for a confrontation, but at the same time I am not about to let anyone tell me what I can or can't do, so long as it is legal. I will be sure to print out a couple copies of MCL 123.1102. I saw that listed in the trifold but wasn't sure if that would be an appropriate reference to cite, so thanks lil_freak for that tip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    mcl 123.1102, bring a copy of it.

    make sure he knows that if he tries to make you leave, he is violating the law and could be subject to termination and/or criminal charges even, make sure you show him the copy of the law.
    Preemption has nothing to do with firearm carry in a state office or state property. Preemption regulates only Counties, Cities, Townships and Villages. Currently there are no laws against carry in an SOS office, so it is legal. If the Ruth Johnson made a rule against firearm carry, it would be legal and preemption could not stop it. Absent a rule from Ruth Johnson, Snyder or change in the law, carry is lawful in all SOS branches.

    There is no law you can print out to show it though.
    Last edited by scot623; 07-22-2012 at 04:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Can anyone from the Clinton Twp. Area make it out next Wednesday evening? Let's help one of our brothers out shall we?

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Orion -

    I suggest you start a new thread asking for people to meet you there. Wed evening would be your best bet as many people will need to come from work. The later the better. Rob (scot623) is correct. You should ask the security agent if he can provide you a written copy of the policy? If he can we have learned something. If he cannot (most likely case, he might learn something).

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

  8. #8
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    Bring a recorder!

    Wait until you come back to ask for a policy or law why you cant carry there.

    And there is no need to apologize for a long post.

  9. #9
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    Make sure you have a recording device (preferably video and audio).

    The security guard might decide to make you look bad, then it is your word against his.
    I would tell him to have a nice afternoon as I walk away from him, at that point anything he says is not only being recorded as him being an aggressor but I would hear what Charlie Brown hears from a school teacher (wah wah wah).

    Don't waste time arguing or trying to educate somebody that doesn't matter. Ignoring him and recording him harassing you is in my opinion your best option, until you are 100% certain of all laws.

  10. #10
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    I have been to a couple of the SOS offices in the last 6 mo OCing, 23 and gratiot & 16 and gratiot (is this the clinton twp office you speak of?) with no issues or comments, didn't even see a guard and other then a few looks it was uneventful. It is a state office and you have every right to carry there. 6-7 trips in 6 months and nothing. Wonder what their malfunction is?
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

  11. #11
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    I never had a problem around here either.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hevymetal View Post
    Wonder what their malfunction is?
    Clinton was an anti.

  13. #13
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
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  14. #14
    Regular Member Orion's Avatar
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    When I go back I will definitely have my recorder running. I have a recorder which I have used in the past, but recently downloaded Cop Recorder for my phone and will have that running as I think it will give better audio.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Orion's Avatar
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    Hevymetal - Yes, I am referring to the office at 16 and Gratiot

    Griffin - Thanks for the link. That is exactly how I would hope I would have the presence of mind to respond. Unfortunately, when I get flustered I don't always think as clearly and quickly as CV67PAT obviously did.
    Last edited by Orion; 07-22-2012 at 08:23 PM. Reason: corrected spelling

  16. #16
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Part of carrying openly is occasionally having issues such as this. It'll happen less often, provided that you are 25 or older in appearance, and maintain a neat appearance with professional looking clothes. But it still happens to every regular OCer from time to time.

    How far you wish to take it as an activist standing up for his rights is up to you. Frankly there is nothing wrong with concealing, or going to a different SOS if you aren't in the mood. But assuming you are, as stated, carry a recorder, preferably one that does video.

    Being as it's a free country, you can handle it however you wish. There is no wax on wax off specifications to push overs getting in your face. Looking on the bright side, you got some brisk service thanks to the guard. Any time you can get that at a SOS/DMV, I'd count it as a blessing.

    Situations like this are when OCing can shine, because you have the opportunity to be very polite, and educate the guard and employees about how courteous, friendly and outgoing open carriers are. OCing should be done by people who are comfortable deescalating situations, and reassuring bystanders of your friendly intentions before they get concerned. This is how OCing makes us not only look good, but convert people on the fence about gun rights. Those that aren't up to this kind of task should CC. Not that I'm saying that you aren't up to the task of being friendly, but rather just trying to summarize since you're newer to OCing.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  17. #17
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    i've never been to an SOS office that has "security" I find that interesting.

    i've oc'd in lapeer and davison SOS multiple times in the past few years. I did have one of the employees run out the back door and presumably write down my license plate info as i was leaving.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Didnt take him long to bash me did it? I'm half tempted to join just to read his comments.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Didnt take him long to bash me did it? I'm half tempted to join just to read his comments.
    I'm guessing you might be, uhhh, banned over there. Just saying'.

  20. #20
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    Banned for what?

  21. #21
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Banned for what?
    Drawing at an event, if I remember right?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  22. #22
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    Never happened.

    I could still post if I chose. At the time, I was offered to stay on the forums, despite being banned as a member, but declined. I should have stayed on. At the time, I was one of the members with the highest post count, as I was really trying to do my part in making the new forum succeed.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    As said in post #9 -- record it.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Orion's Avatar
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    Michigander - Thanks for your comments. I have considered going to another office but I refuse to allow my actions to be dictated by others without just cause. I do occasionally CC, but I prefer to OC and understand that I will occasionally be confronted about it. I have been many times by other citizens, but so far anyone in any position of authority has not yet. I am looking for advice on handling situations like these because I intend to continue OC'ing and until I deal with things like these I will not get the experience needed to be able to handle them with confidence.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i tried to go to this location today but it was closed for some sort of facility problem. i went to the one in troy on e longlake instead. no issues there. there was not security guard there. i was a little disappointed because i wanted to OC at the clinton location.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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