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Orion

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
108
Location
Detroit
Yesterday I made my first OC trip to the Clinton Twsp. Sec of State. It was near closing time and I just wanted to get some information. I will be returning later this week to handle some paperwork. When I entered the Security guard questioned me as to whether I was licensed, and I told him I was. I know, none of his business but he was being friendly and I responded in kind. At that point he asked me to return the firearm to my vehicle. When I inquired as to why he stated that there were a large number of children in attendance and he didn't want them to get a hold of it or have it go off. I told him guns do not go off by themselves and that I find his argument about the children to be both facetious and offensive. I told him I was there merely to ask a question, would not be long and had no intention of disarming. He then requested that I stand next to him until someone could address my question. I did not have an issue with that and I was out of there in less than 5 minutes. However, since I will be going back and will likely have to wait in line, should this be brought up again how should I respond to make it clear that I am fully within my rights under the law, and will not be deterred by foolish arguments? I know that he does not have the authority to require me to vacate the premises, or to disarm, and I am looking for relevant statutes to cite to make my case. I am hoping this will be handled in a professional and respectful manner, and will not be escalated, but if I need to press my case should he be obstinate or if the police should be called I want to be able to make my case in a concise and accurate manner.
Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance to any and all who respond.
 

lil_freak_66

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
1,799
Location
Mason, Michigan
mcl 123.1102, bring a copy of it.

make sure he knows that if he tries to make you leave, he is violating the law and could be subject to termination and/or criminal charges even, make sure you show him the copy of the law.
 

Glock9mmOldStyle

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
2,038
Location
Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
Well if you give a little notice we could probably rustle up several folks to oc with you. I think you just ran into some power tripping renta cop. I have heard of a SOS rep calling the police on a man filming them in Taylor. When TPD arrived the man explained he was exercising his rights & that since SOS was filming citizens why should they have a problem being filmed. TPD being the hero's they are promptly arrested him.

Point being there is strength in numbers, thugs will always single out the lone person to make an example of.

Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both! :eek:
 

Orion

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
108
Location
Detroit
Glock, he was definitely trying to assert his authority over me, even though doesn't really have any, and I didn't have the time to argue with him that day. I was planning on going Tuesday or Wednesday after work, about 4:30. Tuesday they close at 5, but Wednesday thay are open till 7. I don't want to make a big show of force about this but I would feel more comfortable if I had someone else there who had more experience in dealing with thses kinds of things. I've been carrying for about a year and while I have been noticed by police I haven't yet had any intercation with them, which is how it should be. I am not looking for a confrontation, but at the same time I am not about to let anyone tell me what I can or can't do, so long as it is legal. I will be sure to print out a couple copies of MCL 123.1102. I saw that listed in the trifold but wasn't sure if that would be an appropriate reference to cite, so thanks lil_freak for that tip.
 

scot623

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
1,421
Location
Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
mcl 123.1102, bring a copy of it.

make sure he knows that if he tries to make you leave, he is violating the law and could be subject to termination and/or criminal charges even, make sure you show him the copy of the law.

Preemption has nothing to do with firearm carry in a state office or state property. Preemption regulates only Counties, Cities, Townships and Villages. Currently there are no laws against carry in an SOS office, so it is legal. If the Ruth Johnson made a rule against firearm carry, it would be legal and preemption could not stop it. Absent a rule from Ruth Johnson, Snyder or change in the law, carry is lawful in all SOS branches.

There is no law you can print out to show it though.
 
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Glock9mmOldStyle

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
2,038
Location
Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
Orion -

I suggest you start a new thread asking for people to meet you there. Wed evening would be your best bet as many people will need to come from work. The later the better. Rob (scot623) is correct. You should ask the security agent if he can provide you a written copy of the policy? If he can we have learned something. If he cannot (most likely case, he might learn something).

Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both! :eek:
 

Super Trucker

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
263
Location
Wayne County, MI.
Make sure you have a recording device (preferably video and audio).

The security guard might decide to make you look bad, then it is your word against his.
I would tell him to have a nice afternoon as I walk away from him, at that point anything he says is not only being recorded as him being an aggressor but I would hear what Charlie Brown hears from a school teacher (wah wah wah).

Don't waste time arguing or trying to educate somebody that doesn't matter. Ignoring him and recording him harassing you is in my opinion your best option, until you are 100% certain of all laws.
 

Hevymetal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
261
Location
Clinton Twp
I have been to a couple of the SOS offices in the last 6 mo OCing, 23 and gratiot & 16 and gratiot (is this the clinton twp office you speak of?) with no issues or comments, didn't even see a guard and other then a few looks it was uneventful. It is a state office and you have every right to carry there. 6-7 trips in 6 months and nothing. Wonder what their malfunction is?
 

Orion

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
108
Location
Detroit
When I go back I will definitely have my recorder running. I have a recorder which I have used in the past, but recently downloaded Cop Recorder for my phone and will have that running as I think it will give better audio.
 

Orion

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
108
Location
Detroit
Hevymetal - Yes, I am referring to the office at 16 and Gratiot

Griffin - Thanks for the link. That is exactly how I would hope I would have the presence of mind to respond. Unfortunately, when I get flustered I don't always think as clearly and quickly as CV67PAT obviously did.
 
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Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
Part of carrying openly is occasionally having issues such as this. It'll happen less often, provided that you are 25 or older in appearance, and maintain a neat appearance with professional looking clothes. But it still happens to every regular OCer from time to time.

How far you wish to take it as an activist standing up for his rights is up to you. Frankly there is nothing wrong with concealing, or going to a different SOS if you aren't in the mood. But assuming you are, as stated, carry a recorder, preferably one that does video.

Being as it's a free country, you can handle it however you wish. There is no wax on wax off specifications to push overs getting in your face. Looking on the bright side, you got some brisk service thanks to the guard. Any time you can get that at a SOS/DMV, I'd count it as a blessing. :D

Situations like this are when OCing can shine, because you have the opportunity to be very polite, and educate the guard and employees about how courteous, friendly and outgoing open carriers are. OCing should be done by people who are comfortable deescalating situations, and reassuring bystanders of your friendly intentions before they get concerned. This is how OCing makes us not only look good, but convert people on the fence about gun rights. Those that aren't up to this kind of task should CC. Not that I'm saying that you aren't up to the task of being friendly, but rather just trying to summarize since you're newer to OCing.
 

lapeer20m

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
928
Location
Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
i've never been to an SOS office that has "security" I find that interesting.

i've oc'd in lapeer and davison SOS multiple times in the past few years. I did have one of the employees run out the back door and presumably write down my license plate info as i was leaving.
 
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