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Thread: Photo ID with a CPL to OC on a bus?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Photo ID with a CPL to OC on a bus?

    I am at a loss.

    I had some lame brain cop tell me that I have to state issued photo ID whenever I OC in a Vehicle. I asked him for the RCW that said that. He could not remember he claimed. I got home and looked for it and didn't find it.

    Does anyone here know about any law requiring you to have a government ID with you have a CPL?

    The law I found shows that you're not even required to have government ID to GET a CPL.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 07-23-2012 at 11:24 PM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    hmmmm, picture ID and CPL are not linked in any way I can find. If you are required to have a CPL to be carrying the firearm in the manner and place you need to have it on your person and to present to LEO upon a valid request.


    RCW 9.41.050 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

    RCW 9.91.025 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.91.025 (f) Carries any flammable liquid, explosive, acid, or other article or material likely to cause harm to others, except that nothing herein prevents a person from carrying a cigarette, cigar, or pipe lighter or carrying a firearm or ammunition in a way that is not otherwise prohibited by law

    are teh two applicable sections I can dig up quickly. There are some previous posts about the ferries and the buses, but the search function here doesn't like me.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Thanks I have trouble with search too and if I post on an old post I get bashed for a zombie thread.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Cop had it wrong, Id is not required to carry in a bus.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    hmmmm, picture ID and CPL are not linked in any way I can find. If you are required to have a CPL to be carrying the firearm in the manner and place you need to have it on your person and to present to LEO upon a valid request.


    RCW 9.41.050 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

    RCW 9.91.025 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.91.025 (f) Carries any flammable liquid, explosive, acid, or other article or material likely to cause harm to others, except that nothing herein prevents a person from carrying a cigarette, cigar, or pipe lighter or carrying a firearm or ammunition in a way that is not otherwise prohibited by law

    are teh two applicable sections I can dig up quickly. There are some previous posts about the ferries and the buses, but the search function here doesn't like me.
    You have to read .050 carefully...you need to produce your CPL when requested "When required by law" .050 does not say you must produce your CPL when requested...but when reqested,,,and "required by law"...

    so now, you need to find where producing your CPL on request "IS" required by law...I know of no place.

    If you look at ORS 166.370 you will see a place where Oregon CPL holders "are specifically required by law" to produce a CHL, but I know of no WA equivilant.

    Basically, Oregon required a CHL to enter a "public building" (think city hall, that kind of "public building") if you are CC or OC...WA does not have an equivilant restriction...I know of no specific place you cannot have an unlicensed OC v an OC with a license required...don't point to .300 as that only ALLOWS the local government to restrict in a conference center, it does not REQUIRE it to be restricted,

    As for the OP: the officer was blowing smoke. When was the last time you heard that you were required to have ID to ride a bus, or ferry?
    Last edited by hermannr; 07-24-2012 at 12:54 AM.

  6. #6
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Your CPL is legal ID in Washington State. If you carry a loaded firearm on a bus a CPL is required.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    You have to read .050 carefully...you need to produce your CPL when requested "When required by law" .050 does not say you must produce your CPL when requested...but when reqested,,,and "required by law"...

    so now, you need to find where producing your CPL on request "IS" required by law...I know of no place.
    I would imagine such a place would be anywhere you need to have a CPL to carry your pistol. Loaded in a car comes to mind. So does picking up or dropping off your kid at school. Walking around with a concealed pistol and someone sees it print comes to mind, since carrying concealed without a license is a crime.

    Carrying loaded while driving you might need to present both driver's license and CPL, but I can't think of any other situation where you'd need BOTH.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    I would imagine such a place would be anywhere you need to have a CPL to carry your pistol. Loaded in a car comes to mind. So does picking up or dropping off your kid at school. Walking around with a concealed pistol and someone sees it print comes to mind, since carrying concealed without a license is a crime.

    Carrying loaded while driving you might need to present both driver's license and CPL, but I can't think of any other situation where you'd need BOTH.
    "Printing" is not probable cause in Washington

    Vitaeus

    hmmmm, picture ID and CPL are not linked in any way I can find. If you are required to have a CPL to be carrying the firearm in the manner and place you need to have it on your person and to present to LEO upon a valid request.


    RCW 9.41.050 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050
    Here is the that part of hte RCW 9.41.050


    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.
    Since display is not defined we have to conclude that it means the same thing when the law talks about having your license plates on display. I can't find anything that says I must had it over. Only that it be displayed. The bastard took it from me and then was 'processing it' and caused me to miss my bus.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  9. #9
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    "Printing" is not probable cause in Washington

    Are you saying that if you're "printing" while carrying in a prohibited area that that wouldn't be probable cause for a LEO to stop you? Like in a Bar? A Courthouse restricted area? That he can't ask you for a CPL if he see's the "printing" while you're riding a bus?

    Give that a little thought.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  10. #10
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    since carrying concealed without a license is a crime.
    RCW 9.41.060 is the exemption which allows concealed and loaded carry......


    Look folks, it's very simple.....

    Carry in/upon a vehicle requires a CPL (unless you meet the exemptions in .060). Otherwise you meet the requirement in .050 section B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post

    I had some lame brain cop .
    Now now, lets not bash on the boys and girls in blue .... they can't help it ...

  12. #12
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Amazing, our CPL contain the same information as our Driver's License except an expiration date of the Driver's License.
    Full Name, Address, DOB, Height, Weight, Hair and Eye Color, Driver's License Number.... and of course it lacks a photo.
    Showing your CPL when legally required to is not an issue, they already have all the information that your State ID and elements to run any check they want.
    If you must have something to complain about it might as well be something as futile as this, really asked yourself what more information can be gained from having your driver's license in hand as well?
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I might agree that you could show that you have a CPL to get going again, but lacking some other reasonable suspician I do not believe they have a right to demand it, just like when you are driving a car on the public highways, they do not have a right to stop you and demand you show that you have a drivers license (which is required to be able to drive on the public highways) for no reason at all.

    If we are innocent until proven guilty, when the officer sees an OC weapon he must assume that the person has a license if there is no reason to believe that there is any other reason that some criminal activity may be present.

    Personally, I would file a formal complaint against the officer with his jurisdiction.

    As I have said, and maybe I am just fortunate, or maybe it is because of where I live in WA, but since 1970, I have Never been asked for my CPL, when driving or not...including when I was talking to a Skagit co Sheriff's Deputy just Saturday. (While OCing) He only asked what kind of pistol it was...he liked it.
    Last edited by hermannr; 07-24-2012 at 03:48 PM.

  14. #14
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    I was addressing the issue concerning the loaded carry in a vehicle be it Open or Concealed as it is required for both.
    Unless of course you are engaging in a legal outdoor activity in RCW 9.41.060.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    As I have said, and maybe I am just fortunate, or maybe it is because of where I live in WA, but since 1970, I have Never been asked for my CPL, when driving or not...including when I was talking to a Skagit co Sheriff's Deputy just Saturday. (While OCing) He only asked what kind of pistol it was...he liked it.
    I know its been said many times but I feel demeanor, looks and how one handles themself can go a long way to achieve little or no harassment even in the presence of LEO.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    I know its been said many times but I feel demeanor, looks and how one handles themself can go a long way to achieve little or no harassment even in the presence of LEO.
    I have had more encounters lately. This one was just the odd one. While many have been annoying this one was intrusive and disruptive.

    That is why I have said anything.

    The line he tried to feed me is "99 percent of cops WANT you to open carry"
    The other thing was "why do you open carriers always act like you're going to be hassled by the police?"
    "Why do you guys always have an attitude?"
    "This contact started off normal but he has calmed down" ( I never got excited in the first place )

    This is a police state.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    I was addressing the issue concerning the loaded carry in a vehicle be it Open or Concealed as it is required for both.
    Unless of course you are engaging in a legal outdoor activity in RCW 9.41.060.
    However Dave, in this state, stopping you just for a drivers license or sobriety check has been found by the courts as violating Article 1 section 7. IMHO, in the same manner, and maybe even moreso, OC of a weapon MAY require a CPL, but then it MAY NOT.

    OC under .050, or .060, doesn't matter...unless there are some extenuating circumstances, OCing MUST be presumed lawful, and as such cannot warrent a stop and ID on their own any more than an other lawful activity.

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    You have to read .050 carefully...you need to produce your CPL when requested "When required by law" .050 does not say you must produce your CPL when requested...but when reqested,,,and "required by law"...
    "or to any other person when and if required by law to do so." if required by law to do so refers to any other person. Police officers have blanket authority to demand display of a CPL. You must only display it to non-police when and if the law requires it (which it doesn't).

    That is my careful read of the law.
    Last edited by deanf; 07-24-2012 at 05:10 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    I was addressing the issue concerning the loaded carry in a vehicle be it Open or Concealed as it is required for both.
    Unless of course you are engaging in a legal outdoor activity in RCW 9.41.060.
    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    However Dave, in this state, stopping you just for a drivers license or sobriety check has been found by the courts as violating Article 1 section 7. IMHO, in the same manner, and maybe even moreso, OC of a weapon MAY require a CPL, but then it MAY NOT.

    OC under .050, or .060, doesn't matter...unless there are some extenuating circumstances, OCing MUST be presumed lawful, and as such cannot warrent a stop and ID on their own any more than an other lawful activity.
    This is not the point Dave was trying to make. He was simply stating that you are required to have a CPL when your carrying LOADED in a vehicle regardless of it being Open or Concealed (Unless of course you fall into an exception).

    If a police officer pulls you over for X and notices your carrying with reason to believe its loaded and he asks for your CPL, you are required to provide it to him.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 07-24-2012 at 05:37 PM.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post


    "or to any other person when and if required by law to do so." if required by law to do so refers to any other person. Police officers have blanket authority to demand display of a CPL. You must only display it to non-police when and if the law requires it (which it doesn't).

    That is my careful read of the law.
    Cops don't have "blanket authority"....they still need to have RS something illegal is being done. Carrying in a bar don't count as brought up earlier since being armed in a bar is illegal anyway.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post


    "or to any other person when and if required by law to do so." if required by law to do so refers to any other person. Police officers have blanket authority to demand display of a CPL. You must only display it to non-police when and if the law requires it (which it doesn't).

    That is my careful read of the law.
    That is not the correct interpretation. The Or at the beginning of your quote is conjoining the previous statement that you selectively left out, hopefully not to make your point.

    Including the whole sentence.

    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person [STOP] when and if required by law to do so [STOP]. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  22. #22
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    That is not the correct interpretation.
    I disagree. If yours was the intended meaning, why mention police officers at all?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    That is not the correct interpretation. The Or at the beginning of your quote is conjoining the previous statement that you selectively left out, hopefully not to make your point.


    Including the whole sentence.
    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person [STOP] when and if required by law to do so [STOP]. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.
    Thank you for point this out.
    I guess that begs the next questions then. When would we be required to do so?
    Who would be the any other person?

    The traffic stop seems like it MIGHT be a reasonable time to a peace officer.

    Who else? When else?

    What constitutes 'display' for the purpose of this statute?
    I think that simply showing it to an officer not handing it over would be a display.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 07-24-2012 at 10:03 PM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    I disagree. If yours was the intended meaning, why mention police officers at all?
    Why have a qualifier at all then , why not just leave it at we must show cops our CPL when asked?

    And I have talked to lawyers about this, they don't believe it is a blanket authorization to violate our feeling secure in our persons, papers, or effects.........there still has to be PC or RS.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
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    That is my careful read of the law.
    Yes, and it's a plausible interpretation, for sure.

    But, if you can't tell that that particular section is poorly written and ambiguous, then your reading skills aren't quite as good as you think.

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