Philip on TV with Lori Haas talking about Gun Free Zones

riverrat10k said:

As to the video, I respect PVC in the highest. I was, however, a bit put-off with his statement that (paraphrase) permit holders probably practice more than police.

Click to expand...

Not me.. I have many friends that are cops.. I think they go to the range when they have too or if it is PAID time off the street. Only a handful really LOVE to go shoot like my friends and I do.. you see THEM at the range and the gun show etc.. the others? Not so much..

1911 Enthusiast said:

A face shot in a darkened theater, screaming patrons obstructing, tear gas canister deployed and general mass confusion? Without undue risk of hitting an innocent movie goer, à la friendly fire?

That would tax the abilities of a trained military "shooter" who typically fires a minimum of 200 rounds per day in a shooting house, let alone your average Joe OC no matter how much range time he gets.

I'm all for PVC's premise but he should have quit while he was ahead before advancing that shoot 'em in the face idea. Wonder if that course of action would have passed the credibility test when he was on the force?

Click to expand...

it has been done (i know it to be true) and i would point out that the shooter had ballistic body suit on, mostly for looks. a .45 would have stopped him

but Philip is right we need to keep hitting this GFZ thing as often as we can.

and i shoot way more than any cop

I do these drills about once a month and I've found that after stressing (which is getting easier as I get older) I have trouble getting head shots. The hundred yard dash does terrible things to my bragging shots.

I've found that the pelvic shot is pretty easy. I always feel like Ed Ames on the Johnny Carson show, but from the knees up, there's a lot of stuff to stop a bullet.:uhoh:

As they say, BIG guns save lives

Never under estimate the "knock down power" of a big gun.

NO, if he was wearing a vest, it probably would not have killed him, but one hit, center mass from a 45ACP will knock most individuals off their feet.

Once down, struggling to breath, subjects are much easier to deal with.

That is why I don’t carry a 9mm. Many including Sidestreet, (His Taurus 9 looks like my Taurus 45) like them and they are much cheaper to practice with, but I still prefer my 45.

va_tazdad said:

Never under estimate the "knock down power" of a big gun.

NO, if he was wearing a vest, it probably would not have killed him, but one hit, center mass from a 45ACP will knock most individuals off their feet.

Once down, struggling to breath, subjects are much easier to deal with.

That is why I don’t carry a 9mm. Many including Sidestreet, (His Taurus 9 looks like my Taurus 45) like them and they are much cheaper to practice with, but I still prefer my 45.

Click to expand...

Depends on if he's wearing hard or soft armor Taz. The hard armor is getting easier to find at the shows for around 60 bucks a panel.
I agree with the philosophy though. That's one reason I love my 44's....but you can't count on it.

I am really surprised that nobody here has picked up on this yet.... Lori Haas says police train for hundreds of hours only to hit their target 20% of the time.

I know of no law enforcement agency that will allow an officer to continue carrying a firearm if they score 20% on the firing range during qualifications.

Where do people come up with this foolishness from? :question:

Miss/Mrs Lori, if you ever read this forum.... I hit my target 96% to 98% of the time. If I had been in this theater and armed, I would have attemmpted a head shot on the suspect. Sorry to burst your little Brady bubble!

va_tazdad said:

NO, if he was wearing a vest, it probably would not have killed him, but one hit, center mass from a 45ACP will knock most individuals off their feet.

Click to expand...

Wishful thinking I'm afraid, but it will sure get their attention and likely get them to stop what they were doing, even if just for a brief period.

1911 Enthusiast said:

A face shot in a darkened theater, screaming patrons obstructing, tear gas canister deployed and general mass confusion? Without undue risk of hitting an innocent movie goer, à la friendly fire?

That would tax the abilities of a trained military "shooter" who typically fires a minimum of 200 rounds per day in a shooting house, let alone your average Joe OC no matter how much range time he gets.

I'm all for PVC's premise but he should have quit while he was ahead before advancing that shoot 'em in the face idea. Wonder if that course of action would have passed the credibility test when he was on the force?

Click to expand...

Without having been there, and knowing what exactly what my sight picture would have been, I fully disagree with your statement. Witness statements that I have heard state that the gas/smoke was tossed on the far side of the theater, and that during the first few shots from the shooter, no one had moved out of their seats excepts a few to duck down between the seats. I think this guy, even if wearing bullet resistant armor, could have been easily slowed down or stopped if someone had just been carrying a firearm.

va_tazdad said:

NO, if he was wearing a vest, it probably would not have killed him, but one hit, center mass from a 45ACP will knock most individuals off their feet.

Click to expand...

The laws of physics would prevent a shot from knocking the bad guy off his feet, unless if also knocks the shooter off his feet. <end_physics_lesson>

Would it hurt like hell if he got hit in the vest? You bet... it will likely hurt the bad guy enough to convince him that this was not a good idea, or hurt him enough to give you time to get some good follow up shots.

I knew I should have been quiet:lol:

On another note.....the nuts are starting to fall out of the Spruce trees and the lawsuits are starting.

If you weren't hurt, you can still get your suit in::lol:

reported that Torrence Brown, Jr. was in the cinema when Holmes shot dead 12 people and wounded another 58.

One of his friends, 18-year-old A.J. Boik, was killed in the massacre, and Brown is now suffering from extreme trauma, according to his attorney Donald Karpel.

His lawsuit, which has not yet been filed, will name the theater, for not properly securing the emergency exit and Holmes’ doctors, for allegedly prescribing medications, as defendants.
It will also name the studio Warner Brothers, claiming that Dark Knight Rises is too violent.

​

Click to expand...

Walt_Kowalski said:

The laws of physics would prevent a shot from knocking the bad guy off his feet, unless if also knocks the shooter off his feet. <end_physics_lesson>

Click to expand...

Actually, it would all depend on where you hit someone relative to their center of balance and how they are positioned at the time. You could easily hit someone powerfully enough to make them lose their balance, while maintaining your own balance because you had properly braced yourself. <end_physics_correction>

I don't think anyone is posing that a round fired from a .45 would literally knock someone off their feet in "Last Action Hero" fashion, but the ballistic mass would certainly be registered, even through light-medium armor.

Face it, you're not going to get hit by a .45 and not know it. A COM would at least serve as a disruption, if only for a brief moment.

grylnsmn said:

Actually, it would all depend on where you hit someone relative to their center of balance and how they are positioned at the time. You could easily hit someone powerfully enough to make them lose their balance, while maintaining your own balance because you had properly braced yourself. <end_physics_correction>

Click to expand...

Not a chance!
You can't drive 250 grain slug fast enough to have enough kinetic energy to knock a man down.

What does happen since humans are on the higher end of the nervous system, is that it causes muscle spasms that resemble a knock down.

peter nap said:

Not a chance!
You can't drive 250 grain slug fast enough to have enough kinetic energy to knock a man down.

What does happen since humans are on the higher end of the nervous system, is that it causes muscle spasms that resemble a knock down.

Click to expand...

You can knock someone down with a light slap (less kinetic energy than a 45 ACP bullet in flight), if it throws their balance off and they aren't expecting it. I've also seen someone knocked down because they weren't expecting recoil their first time shooting a 45, and lost their balance as a result.

Does that mean that they will go flying backwards through the air? No. But the impact can cause them to fall down.

va_tazdad said:

Never under estimate the "knock down power" of a big gun.

NO, if he was wearing a vest, it probably would not have killed him, but one hit, center mass from a 45ACP will knock most individuals off their feet.

Once down, struggling to breath, subjects are much easier to deal with.

That is why I don’t carry a 9mm. Many including Sidestreet, (His Taurus 9 looks like my Taurus 45) like them and they are much cheaper to practice with, but I still prefer my 45.

Click to expand...

Let's put some real numbers on a .45 ACP vs a 9mm. For those who don't want to follow the math here is the bottom line up front:

With service loads, a .45 ACP has about 6 percent more kinetic energy than a 9mm and about 29 percent more momentum.

Speer's .45 APC 230 Gr Gold Dot Load, velocity of 867 fps @ 25 yards: Energy = 384 ft-lbs
Speers's 9mm 124 Gr +P Gold Dot Load, velocity of 1146 fps @ 25 yards: Energy = 362 ft-lbs

I used the shortcut method for figuring kinetic energy - it's pretty accurate and very easy. Bullet weight/100 times velocity/100 times velocity/100 times 2.22 is the formula.

Momentum is simply the bullet weight times its velocity. In competition shooting, a term called power factor is used to establish the minimum momentum a load can have to be acceptable for competition. In 9mm it's 125, 000 and for the .45 ACP it's 165,000. This is about a 24 percent difference compared to the 29 percent difference for Speer's Gold Dot service loads.

So, a guy with effective body armor who is hit with a .45 ACP is going to be hit only about 25 to 30 percent harder than if hit with a 9mm. Energy is the wrong measure to use if we are talking about the ability to knock something down, momentum is the right one. But, it's a surprise to many that the difference in energy between a 9mm and a .45 ACP is really small.

When it comes to terminal ballistics, this is the best online, simple and practical reference I know of - it's kept pretty current too. Well worth the read.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

BillB said:

Let's put some real numbers on a .45 ACP vs a 9mm. For those who don't want to follow the math here is the bottom line up front:

With service loads, a .45 ACP has about 6 percent more kinetic energy than a 9mm and about 29 percent more momentum.

Speer's .45 APC 230 Gr Gold Dot Load, velocity of 867 fps @ 25 yards: Energy = 362 ft-lbs
Speers's 9mm 124 Gr +P Gold Dot Load, velocity of 1146 fps @ 25 yards: Energy = 384 ft-lbs

I used the shortcut method for figuring kinetic energy - it's pretty accurate and very easy. Bullet weight/100 times velocity/100 times velocity/100 times 2.22 is the formula.

Momentum is simply the bullet weight times its velocity. In competition shooting, a term called power factor is used to establish the minimum momentum a load can have to be acceptable for competition. In 9mm it's 125, 000 and for the .45 ACP it's 165,000. This is about a 24 percent difference compared to the 29 percent difference for Speer's Gold Dot service loads.

So, a guy with effective body armor who is hit with a .45 ACP is going to be hit only about 25 to 30 percent harder than if hit with a 9mm. Energy is the wrong measure to use if we are talking about the ability to knock something down, momentum is right one. But, it's a surprise to many that the difference in energy between a 9mm and a .45 ACP is really small.

When it comes to terminal ballistics, this is the best online, simple and practical reference I know of - it's kept pretty current too. Well worth the read.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Click to expand...

Steel plate shooters use 38 super/9X23 Winchester for a reason~~knock down power, the 9+ is on line with commercial 38 super. When there is no penetration as in a vest or steel plate the numbers are clearly in favor of the 9mm +P. The 9mm has 22 more pounds of kinetic energy and this is what counts in inflicting pain. All is a mute point as the theater was a gun free zone.

Every time this subject comes up....slide rules come out:lol:

Lets move on to a different slide rule subject....like "Did Bumblea$$ Bubba the Dog Hunter, really kill deer cleanly at 100 yards with buckshot"...(We need a BIG LAUGH Smiley)

I only know two people here that have been shot with a vest on. One said "It really pissed him off", the other never commented but in private he says, it left a hell of a bruise and really pissed him off.

Neither measured the foot pounds or fell down!

Close to this...,

Walt_Kowalski said:

Without having been there, and knowing what exactly what my sight picture would have been, I fully disagree with your statement. Witness statements that I have heard state that the gas/smoke was tossed on the far side of the theater, and that during the first few shots from the shooter, no one had moved out of their seats excepts a few to duck down between the seats. I think this guy, even if wearing bullet resistant armor, could have been easily slowed down or stopped if someone had just been carrying a firearm.

Click to expand...

Not knowing al of the specifics (there are a lot of them,and that's gonna take some time yet, as always), any action I might have taken in that situation would have depended on what I knew at the time. Basically, what my skills, abilities, and tools at my disposal were, what I could find a way to do, and what I felt i should do.

I know my accuracy with a pistol decreases with distance, therefore I shoot what I can control better (not JUST because they're cheaper to shoot, Taz, but if you'll pay for the ammo I'll be glad to practice a plenty with your .45, maybe then I'll be more comfy with a big gun), and carry more ammo. Think back, I believe it was a mall out West where some idiot (I think he had some type of armor on also) started shooting up the place and an off duty police officer from another jurisdiction just happened to be with his family. He didn't take the shooter out all of the way, but he held him in check until the locals got there to finish up. Luckily, the off duty officer had extra mags and ammo, and even then he was starting to run low, so there's a case for larger magazines Lori!!!

I think Skid also mentioned that shooting back disrupts the bad guy, and may make him slow or disengage entirely, either way, I probably would have sought some cover first if available, shot center mass for effect, then head, shoulders, groin, hands, with as much speed as possible and still be accurate, and just keep him busy ducking rounds as long as possible. If I could find some cover and engage, I probably wouldn't be ducking. God gave me extra time, and I'd like to spend the last bit of it doing something worthwhile and important.

sidestreet

Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

peter nap said:

Every time this subject comes up....slide rules come out:lol:

Click to expand...

There are funny jokes about that but it is not appropriate for here. Look size for the most part does not matter, it's shot placement. Any bullet that inflicts pain may distract him long enough for a head shot. If the BG is truly wearing armor and the LAC is not confident they can place a round where it will be most effective it would be wise not to draw the BG's attention to themselves. But if he is distracted long enough for a head shot, a .22 could take him out. Again none of this is possible as it was a gun free zone.

Also considering his lack of peripheral vision and the smoke he created, once he walked past a LAC they could have easily executed him with a shot to the back of his head. But again it was a gun free zone.

WalkingWolf said:

Steel plate shooters use 38 super/9X23 Winchester for a reason~~knock down power, the 9+ is on line with commercial 38 super. When there is no penetration as in a vest or steel plate the numbers are clearly in favor of the 9mm +P. The 9mm has 22 more pounds of kinetic energy and this is what counts in inflicting pain. All is a mute point as the theater was a gun free zone.

Click to expand...

Sorry but I have to disagree you here. The reason that 38 Super and other hot 9mm ammo (longer cases) are popular with competition shooters is to make the major power factor of 165 or higher with a high round capacity gun, not to knock over steel targets. The steel targets are set to fall at the lowest power factor legal to use in the particular match. The reason these 9mm are popular is that they allow the shooter to reach the major power factor levels (often a scoring advantage over lower power factors) with the most rounds of ammo in the magazine. The restrictions on the magazines are by length and not capacity or anything else, so a magazine of max length can hold a lot more 9mm rounds than .40 or larger rounds. Fewer reloads means faster times!

The 9mm Luger can be loaded to major power factor levels, but it's very tough on the gun and can produce dangerous pressures, so most don't do it.

BTW, most action pistol competition is OC. Only IDPA requires concealment.