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Thread: Shots Fired at a Theater in Port St. Luice>>>>Not a Big Deal to Police

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    Shots Fired at a Theater in Port St. Luice>>>>Not a Big Deal to Police

    http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2012/jul/...n-altercation/

    Former marine hits a teens hat and a window. Not very Marine like.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member moonie's Avatar
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    It does sound like he escalated to quickly but he was the victim of an assault.

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    reassuring:
    Off-duty Port St. Lucie police officers usually provide law enforcement security at the theater but none were working there early Tuesday when the incident occurred, Sabol said.

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    Someone should check out that movie frame by frame

    Ha, just people being people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonie View Post
    It does sound like he escalated to quickly but he was the victim of an assault.
    He was with his wife and employed his firearm after getting both were shoved and then he being punched. It is possible that he considered his wife along with himself in danger.

    The key point is that the cops are not in a tizzy because it appears that only property damage is the result of the two discharges.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The husband, who is a former Marine, "feared for his safety, pulled his gun, for which he has a concealed permit, and fired two bullets,"
    Isn't there a differnce between fearing for your safety and fearing imminent death or serious bodily injury?

    From the very vague description of the incident I doubt that the pushing and punching amounted to a life-threatening event.

    Yes, the teenaged yoot was loutish, thugish, and generally an ucky person I would not like to have to associate with even on the most casual of terms. The yoot's behavior was criminal and he apparently will be brought to answer for that.

    But the shooter's behavior does nothing to advance the notion of Lawfully Armed Citizens employing firearms in a lawful manner. SYG may apply, but SYG is not a license to use deadly force in response to any assault.

    stay safe.

    PS - The motto is "Every Marine a rifleman" -- not a pistolero. But yes, he certainly needs more practice.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Isn't there a differnce between fearing for your safety and fearing imminent death or serious bodily injury?

    From the very vague description of the incident I doubt that the pushing and punching amounted to a life-threatening event.

    Yes, the teenaged yoot was loutish, thugish, and generally an ucky person I would not like to have to associate with even on the most casual of terms. The yoot's behavior was criminal and he apparently will be brought to answer for that.

    But the shooter's behavior does nothing to advance the notion of Lawfully Armed Citizens employing firearms in a lawful manner. SYG may apply, but SYG is not a license to use deadly force in response to any assault.

    stay safe.

    PS - The motto is "Every Marine a rifleman" -- not a pistolero. But yes, he certainly needs more practice.
    Isn't there a differnce between fearing for your safety and fearing imminent death or serious bodily injury?
    That statement was from a know-it-all reporter...

    From the very vague description of the incident I doubt that the pushing and punching amounted to a life-threatening event.
    Florida law does not require the 'event' to be 'life threatening'.

    But the shooter's behavior does nothing to advance the notion of Lawfully Armed Citizens employing firearms in a lawful manner. SYG may apply, but SYG is not a license to use deadly force in response to any assault.
    So you were there or could tell from the very detailed article how this went down? Or perhaps you have a crystal ball?


    Plus, from the article:

    The four suspects. . .
    Desparity of force. Heard of it?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    So you are willing to take a stand on a pushing-shoving match actually qualifying for the use of deadly force, as opposed to wondering if it was in fact so? The cops know who the other yoots are, but for some inexplicable reason have not seen fit to also charge them. Wonder how that fits in with your disparity of force theory?

    I'm going to return the compliment and ask just how you know all the pertinent facts and how they all match up with both SYG and the use of deadly force laws in Florida. I am more than ready to review whatever citations you care to provide demonstrating that
    Florida law does not require the 'event' to be 'life threatening'
    .

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Where do you draw the line? I'm just asking out of curiosity.

    A punch in the face and a friend of the assailant coming to his aid? I don't believe in standing by and being somebody's punching bag.

    Two guys now potentially going to do whatever? You have no idea what they will do or are capable of doing, or if they will stop at just hurting you or will go full out and won't stop until they kill you and or your wife. Do you wait until he's got you on the ground and his buddy takes your firearm? They've already shown that they are willing to punch somebody in the face because they bumped into you and you were in their way, to get a cell phone?

    It's a split second call. You weren't there. Neither was I. I may have pulled my firearm in preparation and as a warning that I was prepared to use it, maybe not. Warning shots aren't allowed.

    This former Marine isn't up on his marksmanship, or maybe he wasn't actually trying to shoot to kill.
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 07-26-2012 at 02:48 AM.
    Hoka hey

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    Where do you draw the line? I'm just asking out of curiosity.
    The line is not mine to draw - the law (statute and case law) have already drawn it. Generally speaking it is at the point when you hold a reasonable belief that you are faced with imminent death or serious bodily injury. An "ordinary" punching match between two fairly evenly matched, healthy individuals is not likely to be anywhere close to that line.

    A punch in the face and a friend of the assailant coming to his aid? I don't believe in standing by and being somebody's punching bag.
    Neither do I. But I do not see the use of deadly force as the appropriate way to deal with that.

    Two guys now potentially going to do whatever? You have no idea what they will do or are capable of doing, or if they will stop at just hurting you or will go full out and won't stop until they kill you and or your wife. Do you wait until he's got you on the ground and his buddy takes your firearm? They've already shown that they are willing to punch somebody in the face because they bumped into you and you were in their way, to get a cell phone?
    Sucks to be on the back end of the curve, doesn't it? But if you are going to go around preemptively drawing down on everybody who "might" do "something" that might escalate into putting your life in jeopardy then you are the loose cannon the antis rant and rave about - next thing we know you will be shooting it out over a parking space.

    You are upset about an individual that is willing to offer physical violence over what is usually described as "a mild slight". And yet your response to him is to escalate the level of violence to deadly force because he "might" go from "merely" throwing punches to curb-stomping you and your wife and the blue-haired grandmother behind you and the pimple-faced kid behind the counter selling popcorn and ....

    I agree that because neither of was there we can not be sure of what happened, and that even if we were there we could not accurately forcast what would have happened if the response was different. That's why discussions revert to reciting what the law has to say about what and where the limits are. "Mere" physical assault is not an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury - unless there are special conditions associated with the person being assaulted that the assaulter probably would not know about ahead of time. For the person with such a condition the fact it exists would constitute the bulk of their defense against a charge of "excessive force/over-reaction" by way of use of deadly force.

    It's a split second call. You weren't there. Neither was I. I may have pulled my firearm in preparation and as a warning that I was prepared to use it, maybe not. Warning shots aren't allowed.
    I'd like to see where Florida draws the line on brandishing, and where the defensive display of a firearm is allowed. As much as I may agree with you that tactically doing so may be effective/efficient I am not aware that it is legal. And there's the rub - we are supposed to remain within the law because we are LACs (Legally Armed Citizens). It's not just about being legally armed - it's about being legal in all we do.

    This former Marine isn't up on his marksmanship, or maybe he wasn't actually trying to shoot to kill.
    We do not shoot to kill. We shoot to stop the threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury. If the BG happens to die as a result of getting shot that's just the way things turn out. If you say that your intention was to kill the BG then you do not have the affirmative defense of excusable or justifiable homocide - you committed premeditated murder. Your attorney and the prosecutor will be more than happy to explain to you why that is the way it works out.

    On a personal note - it is a major pain in my butt to have to remember all of the constraints set up against my being able to use my handgun for self defense. It sometimes seems as if the lawmakers are trying to find everything they can to stop me from being able to use my handgun. Oh! Wait! Maybe they believe that using a handgun in self defense is supposed to be the very last thing I ought to do, and then only in the most extreme situation (that "threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury" thing again).

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The line is not mine to draw - the law (statute and case law) have already drawn it. Generally speaking it is at the point when you hold a reasonable belief that you are faced with imminent death or serious bodily injury. An "ordinary" punching match between two fairly evenly matched, healthy individuals is not likely to be anywhere close to that line.
    Quantify this.

    Does every individual know that they are "evenly matched"?
    Is physical stature a factor?
    How about fighting proficiency?

    It seems to me that many who engage in brawls "pull" their punches as they lack the sheer compulsion or will necessary to kill. Yet, once you are on the brink of "imminent" death or "serious bodily harm", this is the worst time to make that run for your firearm as the precipice is inches away.

    Do you still stand by the ideology that you may not reach for, or draw your firearm until you believe you are about to be killed or maimed?


    Also, you are only one punch away from potentially not being able to respond. Only one mistake, even that first punch, and the whole "drawing my firearm to defend myself" decision may be taken from you.
    Last edited by slowfiveoh; 07-26-2012 at 07:23 AM.
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    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
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    Interesting statement.
    "Mere" physical assault
    I wonder which Florida Statute the victim(s) were trying to use, at the moment of the "mere physical assault" to justify the use of lethal force at that time.

    Hindsight? Wednesday morning quarterbacking? Who gets to define a 'reasonable belief' after the fact.

    All we know, today, is that the local cops are not all bent outta shape over this Marine using a pistol to "stop the threat". Translation>>>>cops are cool with it.....today.

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.
    784.011 Assault.
    784.021 Aggravated assault.
    784.03 Battery; felony battery.
    784.045 Aggravated battery.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    Quantify this.
    Does every individual know that they are "evenly matched"?
    Not unless they have been examined, such as in a boxing match or scholastic wrestling match

    Is physical stature a factor?
    See above - "reach" is an advantage when all other criteria are considered even. On the other hand,
    a smaller, shoter person can often get "inside" and "under" a larger, taller opponent.

    How about fighting proficiency?
    Of course this plays a significant part.

    There is a legal concept that says that an assailant takes their victim "as is, as found" - in my particular
    case any assailant would not be likely to know all of my infirmities and disabilities, but any injury they inflict would be looked at by the law as if they did. In other words, a punch that might merely bruise
    you could be fatal to me and if that happened the assailant would be looked on as having known that
    fact regardless if they did or did not actually know it.

    This also demonstrates the difference in how reasonable apprehension of "threat of imminent death
    or serious bodily injury" is reached. I would have a reasonable apprehension under circumstances
    where you might laugh off the assailant's behavior as totally non-threatening. This is why there are
    no cut-and-dried rules about this. It all is dependent on the specific circumstances of each incident
    independent of all other incidents.

    It seems to me that many who engage in brawls "pull" their punches as they lack the sheer compulsion or will necessary to kill. Yet, once you are on the brink of "imminent" death or "serious bodily harm", this is the worst time to make that run for your firearm as the precipice is inches away.
    I have no idea what you are trying to get at. Pulling punches, lacking will to fight "all out" (you call
    it "kill"), and being on the brink of, as opposed to actually facing imminent threat of death or serious
    bodily injury are subjects that may or may not be connected. I fail to see how you are connecting
    them.

    The law says you must wait until you are in fact on that brink. It surely is "the worst time" to have to wait until then, but that's what the law says. Make your move before then and you lose what protection the law provides.

    Do you still stand by the ideology that you may not reach for, or draw your firearm until you believe you are about to be killed or maimed?
    It's not an ideology. It's what the law says. If you want to employ deadly force before the conditions
    allowed by the law are met you are free to do so and take your chances on how the law will treat you.
    In the case under discussion the cops decided not to apply the law as it is written - that's called
    discretion and may or may not hold up when the prosecutor reviews the facts (if indeed they review
    it at all).

    Also, you are only one punch away from potentially not being able to respond. Only one mistake, even that first punch, and the whole "drawing my firearm to defend myself" decision may be taken from you.
    And you are one step away from potentially being struck by a falling meterorite or a window washer
    who fell from his work platform.

    When it is not possible to avoid going to stupid places with stupid people who do stupid things the
    option of retreating is always available. Just because the law (SYG) says we do not have to does
    not mean it might not be the better/safer choice of action. And if some lout wants to get all
    physical over being bumped into/bumping into me, my attempts to withdraw will give me more
    legal "cover" for my actions should they press their assault. "I told him I did not want to fight, and
    tried to walk away, Your Honor, but he just kept coming at me throwing fists. There was nothing
    I could do at that point but defend myself. Given my disabilities and infirmities I reasonably beleived
    that I would be either killed or seriously injured if he continued his attack. I had no other choice but
    to shoot him in order to stop his attack." That beats the heck out of "He threw the first punch and
    the law said I did not have to retreat so I shot the sucker."

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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