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Thread: Unaccompanied Minor open carrying a black powder revolver?

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    Unaccompanied Minor open carrying a black powder revolver?

    Alright this is a question that I have been trying to solve for quite a while. I am 16 years old, and live in Arizona. I have been shooting since I was 10 and I have had a passion for guns since I was 6. I have gone to the Scottsdale Gun Club and received proper training by staff on hand and learned and memorized every single firearm safety rule in existence. My dad still doesn't understand how it is possible for such a young mind to know so much about the subject of guns but he is a proud father. In the recent events that have been going on my family has been very concerned with the safety of everyone in the family. They want from now on everyone to always be carrying including me (besides at school of coarse). I have an 1851 Navy .44 revolver (yes we all know that they were actually on produced as .36 navies not .44) that I bought with my own money only my dad of coarse had to actually make the purchase himself. So my question is can an unaccompanied minor with an "antique firearm" open carry? Thank you to all answers.

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    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    You'll have to check with applicable AZ law.

    In Maine there is no minimum OC age Statute, oddly enough. Its 18 to get a CCP.

    I'm sure some folks will chime in soon, but you can get a jump on the thing by checking the Arizona board and looking through the Law thread there.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Edited: Major error in citation -

    Note: Moved this to the Arizona sub-forum

    Suggest you contact a good firearms attorney in your state - initial consultation is normally w/o charge.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-25-2012 at 10:48 PM. Reason: State specific question
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    Dang I wish I lived in Maine haha! If only if only........ From what I have read from my research antique firearms are exempt from the law but then other places say they are treated as regular firearms. Also I am looking for the law in AZ not other states because they do not apply to me in this situation. Not meaning to be rude at all, I am just interested in AZ law at this moment but information on laws in other states will be very helpful in future reference.
    Last edited by amorse1; 07-25-2012 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Short answer = 21

    but....................(see exceptions, definitions, et al. Wanna be a test case? Could happen

    http://www.opencarry.org/wa.html

    9.36.010 Weapons and dangerous exhibitions.

    A. It is unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club or weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, at a time that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons, unless otherwise authorized by law.

    IMHO - you would need a specific exemption authorizing a minor to carry in public......I find none.

    Note: Moved this to the Arizona sub-forum

    Suggest you contact a good firearms attorney in your state - initial consultation is normally w/o charge.
    Note what I underlined. Everything you just listed is prohibited IF the person is carrying "in a manner, under circumstances, at a time that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons." To me, this sounds like Vermont's law, which makes it illegal for anyone to carry a firearm "with the intent or avowed purpose of injuring a fellow man." If just open carrying counted as intimidation, then I would think it's illegal all-around for anyone of any age.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. None of the above is, or should be construed as, legal advice.
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Nascar beat me to it. I don't know if there are other laws, but the one cited by Grapeshot does not seem to be one against it. I didn't even see a reference to age in it. It also appeared to me that Grapeshot was saying you must be 21 to open carry in AZ. Please correct me if I misread you, Grapeshot.

    I am an AZ property owner, but a NV resident. I only know the AZ laws that affect me, so I cannot answer the OP with any certainty, but I was definitely under the impression that you could OC a real sidearm at at least as young as 18.

    EDIT @ Grapeshot: Your link was for WA laws. Was your quoted law from WA or AZ?
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-25-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Everyone makes mistakes & the young man caught grapesnots. So no harm no foul. Maybe one of the experts from AzCDL can offer a answer? Fred, Rebel ....

    Thanks in advance.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    --snip--

    EDIT @ Grapeshot: Your link was for WA laws. Was your quoted law from WA or AZ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Everyone makes mistakes & the young man caught grapesnots. So no harm no foul. Maybe one of the experts from AzCDL can offer a answer? Fred, Rebel ....

    --snip--
    Completely blew that one - my bad.

    The law quoted was incorrectly for WA. Followed a long winding path and missed a turn somewhere.
    I'll back off and wait for AzCDL people to respond.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Speaking of mistakes - sorry grapeshot - not grapesnot - man this getting old thing sucks ...cannot make my old fingers work the tiny tiny keyboard on my tablet very well

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If the laws in AZ allow it, considering your age, it might not be a bad idea to keep copies of the gun laws on your person. So when a LEO does stop you can show him there is nothing in the law that forbids carry at your age. Don't forget your recorder.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Speaking of mistakes - sorry grapeshot - not grapesnot - man this getting old thing sucks ...cannot make my old fingers work the tiny tiny keyboard on my tablet very well
    --snip--
    No offense taken. The old saw about you can call be anything as long as you call me to dinner still applies
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Thanks everyone for all the answers (event though my question is still unasnwered haha )

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    If the laws in AZ allow it, considering your age, it might not be a bad idea to keep copies of the gun laws on your person. So when a LEO does stop you can show him there is nothing in the law that forbids carry at your age. Don't forget your recorder.
    What's funny is I actually do carry around in my wallet all of the gun laws on sticky notes but I still need to find the law gives me permission to my question stated in the beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amorse1 View Post
    Thanks everyone for all the answers (event though my question is still unasnwered haha )



    What's funny is I actually do carry around in my wallet all of the gun laws on sticky notes but I still need to find the law gives me permission to my question stated in the beginning.
    I won't have time to research this tonight. But, I do want to take a couple of minutes to correct a small misconception. You do NOT need to look for a law that gives you permission to carry. You need only look for one that makes it illegal. If there is none, then it is legal by default.

    I will note that, with certain exceptions (such as using the firearm in certain activities with parental permission), Federal law prohibts "firearm" possession by those under 18. However, as I understand it, "firearm" at the Federal level excludes pre-1898 weapons (that's why felons can, as I understand it, legally own black powder muskets if the state is ok with it). You need to check to see if Arizona does the same thing. If you see an AZ law that says "no firearm/handgun possession by those under 18" (or similar), check the definitions of "firearm" and "handgun" to see if they are all-encompasing or if pre-1898 "antique" weapons are excluded.

    Now, I will note that AZ requires you to be 21 to carry concealed. So, whether it's legal to carry now or whether you have to wait until you're 18, don't conceal until you're 21.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. None of the above is, or should be construed as, legal advice.
    Last edited by Nascar24Glock; 07-26-2012 at 12:47 AM. Reason: added disclaimer
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

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    Alright so here's what I found,

    Under AZ law
    ANTIQUES/REPLICAS

    Arizona statutes are silent on antique and replica firearms
    except that firearms in a permanently inoperable condition are
    not included within the definition of firearms and are therefore
    exempt for the weapon laws of Arizona. All other categories of
    antique or replica firearms are treated as ordinary firearms for
    possession and carrying purposes.

    So from what I get from that it is legal for me to carry an antique revolver because under ATF law the model was done before 1898 and it uses "obsolete" ammo.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amorse1 View Post
    Alright so here's what I found,

    Under AZ law
    ANTIQUES/REPLICAS

    Arizona statutes are silent on antique and replica firearms
    except that firearms in a permanently inoperable condition are
    not included within the definition of firearms
    and are therefore
    exempt for the weapon laws of Arizona. All other categories of
    antique or replica firearms are treated as ordinary firearms for
    possession and carrying purposes.

    So from what I get from that it is legal for me to carry an antique revolver because under ATF law the model was done before 1898 and it uses "obsolete" ammo.
    Surely you are not suggesting carrying an "permanently inoperable" replica - BTW cite needed.

    Question still remains - do you want to be a test case? Are there enough discretionary funds available to buck what will likely prove to be an unpopular cause? Consider that you could loose you RKBA permanently if worst case rule applies.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-26-2012 at 09:44 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Of coarse I was not implying carrying an inoperable firearm there would be no use to that whatsoever and in fact is a silly thought in my opinion. But right before that it says EXCEPT THAT of....... so I concluded that inoperable firearms aren't even considered antiques and are just for collectors. Sorry if I misunderstood. The thing is if the law DOES permit it I WOULD carry. But only under the law. So why would my right to carry ever be taken away if it was legal (not trying to be confrontational at all). This is exactly why I would carry the law itself in my wallet. I have met a lot of LEO's here in AZ and they all respect someone who can not only cite the law in which it makes them legal to do something but also show them and what they are doing the respect in which it deserves.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amorse1 View Post
    Of coarse I was not implying carrying an inoperable firearm there would be no use to that whatsoever and in fact is a silly thought in my opinion. But right before that it says EXCEPT THAT of....... so I concluded that inoperable firearms aren't even considered antiques and are just for collectors. Sorry if I misunderstood. The thing is if the law DOES permit it I WOULD carry. But only under the law. So why would my right to carry ever be taken away if it was legal (not trying to be confrontational at all). This is exactly why I would carry the law itself in my wallet. I have met a lot of LEO's here in AZ and they all respect someone who can not only cite the law in which it makes them legal to do something but also show them and what they are doing the respect in which it deserves.
    Another question because I do not know AZ laws. If you do get arrested, considering it is just a misdemeanor would you go to juvenile court, or adult court? And would your record be cleared at 18?

    The reason I ask is that judges in family court can adjudicate on what they believe is in your best interest, and that is not always in your best interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascar24Glock View Post
    I won't have time to research this tonight. But, I do want to take a couple of minutes to correct a small misconception. You do NOT need to look for a law that gives you permission to carry. You need only look for one that makes it illegal. If there is none, then it is legal by default.

    I will note that, with certain exceptions (such as using the firearm in certain activities with parental permission), Federal law prohibts "firearm" possession by those under 18. However, as I understand it, "firearm" at the Federal level excludes pre-1898 weapons (that's why felons can, as I understand it, legally own black powder muskets if the state is ok with it). You need to check to see if Arizona does the same thing. If you see an AZ law that says "no firearm/handgun possession by those under 18" (or similar), check the definitions of "firearm" and "handgun" to see if they are all-encompasing or if pre-1898 "antique" weapons are excluded.

    Now, I will note that AZ requires you to be 21 to carry concealed. So, whether it's legal to carry now or whether you have to wait until you're 18, don't conceal until you're 21.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. None of the above is, or should be construed as, legal advice.
    Thanks for the information, I know that isn't legal information, but it does give me some advice on different ways to go about researching certain laws. I also didn't know that if something wasn't illegal then it is legal by default, gosh you gotta love America! Also I would never carry conceal until 21, like I said stay within the boundaries of the law.

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    Well it looks like I will have to wait till I'm 18....
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03101.htm
    4."Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03111.htm
    Thanks everyone for the replies, but I guess two more years is what I am going to have to wait till, at least then I can carry instead the 1911 my dad and I always ooh and aww over every time we pass by it in the local gun shop.
    Last edited by amorse1; 07-26-2012 at 02:38 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amorse1 View Post
    Well it looks like I will have to wait till I'm 18....
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03101.htm
    4."Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03111.htm
    Thanks everyone for the replies, but I guess two more years is what I am going to have to wait till, at least then I can carry instead the 1911 my dad and I always ooh and aww over every time we pass by it in the local gun shop.
    Check your states knife laws there is no reason to be completely unarmed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Check your states knife laws there is no reason to be completely unarmed.
    Don't worry I have been legally carrying my knife around for years know sadly it can only be my pocket knife so the throwing knives stay at the house

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    OC pistol in Arizona: 18 Black powder (no presently mgfg cartridge) doesn't come under GCA '68... no 4473 form needed. However... 'far as I can determina and ever recall... 18 was the minimum age 'on our own'. Other than that you need a parent. I've seen 13 yr old girls open carry pistols with their Dad along (in public).

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    Do you know a law that makes it illegal to open carry a gun in public with your parents and or guardian? Also do those 13 year old girls live in AZ cause a described above some states don't have an OC age.

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    What do you guys think about open carry of a taser? I feel like I would feel a lot safer with a taser versus just a knife. Do you know if I can carry concealed or even if I can carry open?

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    Quote Originally Posted by amorse1 View Post
    Well it looks like I will have to wait till I'm 18....
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03101.htm
    4."Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03111.htm
    Thanks everyone for the replies, but I guess two more years is what I am going to have to wait till, at least then I can carry instead the 1911 my dad and I always ooh and aww over every time we pass by it in the local gun shop.
    Actually, I've just checked the statutes. You MIGHT be able to carry that black powder handgun...to an extent.

    Here's the relevant law
    "13-3111 A. Except as provided in subsection B, an unemancipated person who is under eighteen years of age and who is unaccompanied by a parent, grandparent or guardian, or a certified hunter safety instructor or certified firearms safety instructor acting with the consent of the unemancipated person's parent or guardian, shall not knowingly carry or possess on his person, within his immediate control, or in or on a means of transportation a firearm in any place that is open to the public or on any street or highway or on any private property except private property owned or leased by the minor or the minor's parent, grandparent or guardian."

    The bolded and underlined portion might be your loophole. Basically, as I'm reading it, you can carry that black powder handgun IF YOUR PARENT(S) ACCOMPANY YOU (I wouldn't carry the 1911; you still have Federal law to worry about; as I understand it, Federal law excludes antiques, but requires that minors possessing non-antique firearms have their parent's consent WHILE ENGAGING IN SPECIFIED ACTIVITIES, none of which apply to this situation). However, if you choose to carry this way, your parents had better be with you at all times! If you get nature's call, your father had better accompany you to the restroom (I'm assuming you're a guy; if you're a gal, replace "father" with "mother"). If your parents are in aisle 5 at Wal-mart, don't go get something in aisle 4. Bottomline, you had better stay right by their side!

    Also, keep something in mind. You WILL be a test case for this, and the stakes are high. Subsection H reads: "A person who violates subsection A is guilty of a class 6 felony." So, if you're tried as an adult, you may get a felony conviction and lose your right to bear arms. Even if you're adjudicated as a juvenile delinquent, your ability to get a handgun carry permit later may be impaired (since many states also disqualify those who were adjudicated as delinquent for offenses that would be a felony if committed by an adult). So, think about it before proceeding!

    Disclaimer (sorry, it may sound redundant; but, in today's litigous society, I've got to include it): I am not a lawyer. None of the above is, or should be construed as legal advice. Let me also add that, if you think that you want to try carrying this way, CHECK WITH A REAL LAWYER FIRST! Don't ask any police officer. Many know the law just well enough to "book 'em" and let the DA sort it out. Also, if a police officer gives you bad legal advice, he is not liable for it. At least you can sue a lawyer for giving bad legal advice.
    Last edited by Nascar24Glock; 07-26-2012 at 11:27 PM. Reason: error correction
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

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