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Thread: What if i don't see the sign

  1. #1
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    What if i don't see the sign

    I am not asking what if i see it and ignore it or pretend i didn't see it what if I honestly didn't see the sign.

    walking into a store last week they had posted but on a store sign page like they print their prices or adds on and it was on the inside of the second door not the outside door down around knee level only text not easily visible from outside at all. I was already inside their building turned around and left.

    now not that they would have seen my gun , when i am out with the family I conceal for convenience

    but I have seen some signs in some very un-prominent locations , I usually look for it anytime i go to a new place.

    I am just wondering what if I honestly don't see their sign?

  2. #2
    McX
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    this is what i could find:
    posted a sign that is located in a prominent place near all
    of the entrances to the part of the building to which the
    restriction applies and any individual entering the building
    can be reasonably expected to see the sign.

    here's some more:
    943.13 (2) (bm) 1. In this paragraph, “sign” means a
    sign that states a restriction imposed under subd. 2. that
    is at least 5 inches by 7 inches.
    Last edited by McX; 07-25-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  3. #3
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    thats what i found also , I also see that if i stay after being asked to leave it could result in a fine.
    I would surely leave as soon as asked

    some stores have so much advertisement clutter in their windows , that a white lettering on a clear background placed behind tinted glass to the side of the door below waist level could easily get lost

  4. #4
    McX
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    the words that are kinda chokers to me are: prominent, and reasonable. loose and open to interpretation. sounds like the place they posted the sign you saw is prominent to 'mini-people'. the 'near' thing i guess is met by it being near an entrance. something you might want to consider, next time you encounter one of these, whip out el phone, and snap a pic, so if you get problems, there or later, you can show the pic. no one would ever move the sign after calling the heat on you, right?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D59ZWa8ehgI
    Last edited by McX; 07-25-2012 at 03:49 PM.

  5. #5
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    if i saw it to take a pick , not that my cell phone can even take picks , i know get with this century , yes my phone is just pre-camera phone and the battery is holding up so as long as it works i use it.

    but if i saw it to take a pick i would have turned around and left seeing it in a bad or non-prominent location is still seeing it

  6. #6
    McX
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    i got one of these, seems to work out ok.
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  7. #7
    McX
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    and ofcourse: didnt make it in transmission i guess. the old classic; what has been seen can not be unseen.


    i'd personally linger only long enough to hand the management the no guns equals no money card. then i'd turn on my heels, and hit the door. no: 'dank yoo com agin' expected as i left.
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    Last edited by McX; 07-25-2012 at 04:19 PM.

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    Don't worry, they'll show you the sign at trial !

  9. #9
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    Minnesota defined it:

    (2) "Prominently" means readily visible and within four feet laterally of the entrance with the bottom of the sign at a height of four to six feet above the floor.

    (3) "Conspicuous" means lettering in black arial typeface at least 1-1/2 inches in height against a bright contrasting background that is at least 187 square inches in area.


    why didn't our legislature think of that

  10. #10
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenCountyPete View Post
    thats what i found also , I also see that if i stay after being asked to leave it could result in a fine.
    I would surely leave as soon as asked
    The sign is legal notice. You are trespassing once you pass it and remain with your weapon. It would be up to your attorney at trial to refute that it was prominent. You do not have to be asked to leave before simply calling 911 and you being subject to a citation. If it is prominent, it is irrelevant whether or not you were paying attention and actually saw it.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 07-25-2012 at 05:15 PM.

  11. #11
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    I thought that might be the case

    I will just have to keep a careful eye out I have only run into 2 recently

    the Bellville Library , and the Duluth trading company outlet store in Bellville were posted on an inner wall or window , so that they could not be seen from outside the building

    everywhere else in the area seems to like my business

  12. #12
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I've always figured that if I didn't see it it must not have been prominently posted.
    If it were prominently posted, I would have seen it.

    Cluttered windows or small text-only signs in strange places don't seem to me to be prominent.
    Maybe they 'posted' to satisfy their scaredy-pants customers, but did it so it wouldn't be effective in hopes of keeping their best (in terms of proven character) customers.

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    I figured that places post in small out of the way print only signs , to be discrete

    to keep up appearances, after all isn't it all about appearance isn't that the premise of marketing , to Make it LOOK better

    they treat it like the fine print at the bottom of the advertisement , the stuff they have to say but didn't really want to have to say.


    Kind of like
    ***the use of this product is known to be cancer causing in California***
    **** the action figure pictured does not actually fly and this image is not to scale****
    ***** batteries not included *****
    ****** strawberries pictured with cereal are not a part of this product*****

    I mean to say the last thing they want their store to say is
    **entering this building is known to be less safe than the average in 49 states**
    *we can't trust ourselves , how could we ever trust our customers*
    *we think you are a crazy loon to carry a gun in public , think of the children!*
    * leave your rights in the car , bring your money*

  14. #14
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenCountyPete View Post

    I am just wondering what if I honestly don't see their sign?
    Usually if you ask they will tell you where the restroom is.

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    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    I'm likely repeated some other posts, but if I miss a No Guns sign,

    I just apologize, hand them the No Guns = No Money card and walk out the door.
    “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.” ― Plato

    Plato knew this yet today's antis still don't get it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Expat View Post
    I'm likely repeated some other posts, but if I miss a No Guns sign,

    I just apologize, hand them the No Guns = No Money card and walk out the door.
    You know this would be an affirmative defense .. you would have to prove a sign was not properly posted. Not a position you want to be in (just cause its going to cost $$$ to defend) ... but it is a defense.

    That's why I vehemently hate making such signs mandatory. Its different than a trespassing sign, greatly different. I would never find anyone guilty if I was on a jury of this charge. Jury nullification.

    Not seeing a sign that was properly posted -- you better pray people like me are on they jury (and that is like 1 in a million). The law expects you to know every 50,000-150,000 laws you are subject to. I'm sure everyone, on average, breaks at least 1 law a day.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 07-27-2012 at 11:20 AM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member RR_Broccoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You know this would be an affirmative defense .. you would have to prove a sign was not properly posted. Not a position you want to be in (just cause its going to cost $$$ to defend) ... but it is a defense.

    That's why I vehemently hate making such signs mandatory. Its different than a trespassing sign, greatly different. I would never find anyone guilty if I was on a jury of this charge. Jury nullification.

    Not seeing a sign that was properly posted -- you better pray people like me are on they jury (and that is like 1 in a million). The law expects you to know every 50,000-150,000 laws you are subject to. I'm sure everyone, on average, breaks at least 1 law a day.
    I think he meant that once someone TOLD him there was a sign that wasn't predominantly posted.

    The sign is notification, legal, its the SAME THING as someone telling you to leave. Either a person can tell you, OR a sign can. You are supposed to treat the sign as someone telling you.

    So, if there is a sign, and you miss it because they put it in a stupid place (looking at you Harbor Freight), and nobody says anything you are not notified and therefore, not trespassing. If someone says, "hey, we've got a sign" or "you can't do that here" after that, you are notified and need to leave.

    My rule is I walk in (or walk by first) and look, if I see something obvious or know the place due to reputation is posted don't go in armed. If I don't see a sign, I just go in. But, I look pretty carefully.

    If in the event there's a citation, at that point pictures and video will be taken of course. Some places post inside, but have doors that are only one way, so it's impossible to no enter all the way to get to the exit without being in violation.

    The law needs to be cleaned up on this respect, they were lazy there.
    "I can only be held responsible for my own stupidity." - Captain Nemo

  18. #18
    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    ^^^ Yep, what he said.
    “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.” ― Plato

    Plato knew this yet today's antis still don't get it!

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  19. #19
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    clean up is needed , but very carefully
    Last edited by GreenCountyPete; 07-27-2012 at 10:07 PM.

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    What if a sign clearly does not meet the legal requirements? Is it invalid? I know of a place that has a 3 or 4 inch circle of a revolver crossed out-no where close to the required 5x7 size requirement... no words or anything. So only revolvers are banned and semi autos ok?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsam View Post
    What if a sign clearly does not meet the legal requirements? Is it invalid? I know of a place that has a 3 or 4 inch circle of a revolver crossed out-no where close to the required 5x7 size requirement... no words or anything. So only revolvers are banned and semi autos ok?

    943.13 (2) (bm) 1. In this paragraph, “sign” means a
    sign that states a restriction imposed under subd. 2. that
    is at least 5 inches by 7 inches.


    So your question really is: is statue a mandatory provision? And if it is mandatory that the sign by 5 by 7 then if not, does this invalidate the other punitive section in such an instance.

    With the wording listed here, I do not think it is a mandatory requirement for the sign to by at least 5 by 7 inches. It does not say "shall be 5 by 7" and the absence of the "shall" in the sentence may be interpreted that it is not mandatory but the legislature just gave it as a guide (just so long as it is reasonably viewable).

    Now if the other statue references this one and say "shall be made under ... this section" then it would then appear that the dimensions are mandatory.

    This section really does not talk about text size so one could have 1 pt font on a 5 by 7 sign .. would this sign be OK? Clearly not. The how about a 48 pt font on a sign measuring 4.5 by 7?

    If pushed as a defense I would surely make it one but I would not have high hopes; but if the judge rules that 5 by 7 is mandatory then the plaque or sticker is not a "sign" under this statue.

    I assume google scholar showed nothing ... even when the word "shall" is in a statue that does not always mean its mandatory either ... so mandatory v. directory nature of things needs to be reviewed by: looking at case law, looking at legislature's transcripts when the law was discussed, common sense reading, and a guess of the intent of the statue. Mandatory generally means something that is required to have the desired effect of the statue completed.

    Clearly a 4.5 by 7 sign could accomplish the notification just as well as a 5 by 7 sign given the lack of font size required. Just my viewpoint. But I'm generally pretty good at guessing how a judge would see things.

  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Any business I have encountered with a sign, the sign is in plain sight, except for malls for some odd reason. But I always look the first time I visit a business, and not just a quick glance. Some business have cameras on the entrance. If a person is caught on camera reading the sign and tell the responding police they did not see a sign, in some states has turned misdemeanor into a felony. It would be smart to always assume they have a camera.

  23. #23
    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Well here's a twist to the original topic:

    What if you didn't realise you were on school grounds??

    I was OCing all day yesterday. Around 6, I was asked to go to South Milwaukee's Lions Fest, so I went.

    It was supposed to get cooler last night so I changed my clothes and, as a result, switched to CC for the night.

    There were cops all over the Fest grounds, keeping an eye on things.

    As the night went on, someone in our group asked where the bathrooms were. Someone else responded, "Right by the school".



    I asked where the school was. The way the Fest was setup, I couldn't even see the building. I then found out the entire thing was setup on school grounds.

    I had no idea, of course, and I somehow managed to not shoot any children. But seriously, I was really glad at that moment I had decided last minute to not OC. I can just see me arguing my rights, and suddenly realizing I'm violating a GFSZ somewhere during the discussion....

    I was still in violation, but of course no one would know that. By the time this all happened we were about ready to leave anyway, so we did.

  24. #24
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    there are places where the school owns the land and you would have no idea , but it is technically school grounds , it should have to be marked in a way that you would be rather sure to see paint the curb a specific color, post sings every 50 feet fence the hole thing and post at every entrance , you know all the things that they see as reasonable for festivals and businesses to have to do. or make it just school buildings or areas fenced and designated school at the gates

    i though the same thing about the 1000 foot rule , if the cop has to measure 3 times to decide if you were inside 1000 feet then he doesn't reasonably know it is a school zone and you should shouldn't be burdened with knowing either , clearly mark it or wave the law
    Last edited by GreenCountyPete; 08-10-2012 at 06:23 PM.

  25. #25
    McX
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    my hopefully soon to be former Church is not posted though a school is off to the left, and attached only by a narrow hallway, out of the Church building proper. you could mistakenly blunder into the Church, to find yourself in a school zone. the powers that be there dont seem to care if you know it or not, and probably wont give a damn if you get a free trip to jail for a GFSZ violation.

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