What if i don't see the sign

GreenCountyPete · Jul 25, 2012

I am not asking what if i see it and ignore it or pretend i didn't see it what if I honestly didn't see the sign.

walking into a store last week they had posted but on a store sign page like they print their prices or adds on and it was on the inside of the second door not the outside door down around knee level only text not easily visible from outside at all. I was already inside their building turned around and left.

now not that they would have seen my gun , when i am out with the family I conceal for convenience

but I have seen some signs in some very un-prominent locations , I usually look for it anytime i go to a new place.

I am just wondering what if I honestly don't see their sign?

McX · Jul 25, 2012

this is what i could find:
posted a sign that is located in a prominent place near all
of the entrances to the part of the building to which the
restriction applies and any individual entering the building
can be reasonably expected to see the sign.

here's some more:
943.13 (2) (bm) 1. In this paragraph, “sign” means a
sign that states a restriction imposed under subd. 2. that
is at least 5 inches by 7 inches.

GreenCountyPete · Jul 25, 2012

thats what i found also , I also see that if i stay after being asked to leave it could result in a fine.
I would surely leave as soon as asked

some stores have so much advertisement clutter in their windows , that a white lettering on a clear background placed behind tinted glass to the side of the door below waist level could easily get lost

McX · Jul 25, 2012

the words that are kinda chokers to me are: prominent, and reasonable. loose and open to interpretation. sounds like the place they posted the sign you saw is prominent to 'mini-people'. the 'near' thing i guess is met by it being near an entrance. something you might want to consider, next time you encounter one of these, whip out el phone, and snap a pic, so if you get problems, there or later, you can show the pic. no one would ever move the sign after calling the heat on you, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D59ZWa8ehgI

GreenCountyPete · Jul 25, 2012

if i saw it to take a pick , not that my cell phone can even take picks , i know get with this century , yes my phone is just pre-camera phone and the battery is holding up so as long as it works i use it.

but if i saw it to take a pick i would have turned around and left seeing it in a bad or non-prominent location is still seeing it

McX · Jul 25, 2012

i got one of these, seems to work out ok.

McX · Jul 25, 2012

and ofcourse: didnt make it in transmission i guess. the old classic; what has been seen can not be unseen.

i'd personally linger only long enough to hand the management the no guns equals no money card. then i'd turn on my heels, and hit the door. no: 'dank yoo com agin' expected as i left.

davidmcbeth · Jul 25, 2012

Don't worry, they'll show you the sign at trial !

GreenCountyPete · Jul 25, 2012

Minnesota defined it:

(2) "Prominently" means readily visible and within four feet laterally of the entrance with the bottom of the sign at a height of four to six feet above the floor.

(3) "Conspicuous" means lettering in black arial typeface at least 1-1/2 inches in height against a bright contrasting background that is at least 187 square inches in area.

why didn't our legislature think of that

Interceptor_Knight · Jul 25, 2012

GreenCountyPete said:
thats what i found also , I also see that if i stay after being asked to leave it could result in a fine.
I would surely leave as soon as asked

The sign is legal notice. You are trespassing once you pass it and remain with your weapon. It would be up to your attorney at trial to refute that it was prominent. You do not have to be asked to leave before simply calling 911 and you being subject to a citation. If it is prominent, it is irrelevant whether or not you were paying attention and actually saw it.

GreenCountyPete · Jul 26, 2012

I thought that might be the case

I will just have to keep a careful eye out I have only run into 2 recently

the Bellville Library , and the Duluth trading company outlet store in Bellville were posted on an inner wall or window , so that they could not be seen from outside the building

everywhere else in the area seems to like my business

MKEgal · Jul 26, 2012

I've always figured that if I didn't see it it must not have been prominently posted.
If it were prominently posted, I would have seen it.

Cluttered windows or small text-only signs in strange places don't seem to me to be prominent.
Maybe they 'posted' to satisfy their scaredy-pants customers, but did it so it wouldn't be effective in hopes of keeping their best (in terms of proven character) customers.

GreenCountyPete · Jul 26, 2012

I figured that places post in small out of the way print only signs , to be discrete

to keep up appearances, after all isn't it all about appearance isn't that the premise of marketing , to Make it LOOK better

they treat it like the fine print at the bottom of the advertisement , the stuff they have to say but didn't really want to have to say.

Kind of like
***the use of this product is known to be cancer causing in California***
**** the action figure pictured does not actually fly and this image is not to scale****
***** batteries not included *****
****** strawberries pictured with cereal are not a part of this product*****

I mean to say the last thing they want their store to say is
**entering this building is known to be less safe than the average in 49 states**
*we can't trust ourselves , how could we ever trust our customers*
*we think you are a crazy loon to carry a gun in public , think of the children!*
* leave your rights in the car , bring your money*

WalkingWolf · Jul 26, 2012

GreenCountyPete said:
I am just wondering what if I honestly don't see their sign?

Usually if you ask they will tell you where the restroom is. :monkey

Maine Expat · Jul 27, 2012

I'm likely repeated some other posts, but if I miss a No Guns sign,

I just apologize, hand them the No Guns = No Money card and walk out the door.

davidmcbeth · Jul 27, 2012

Maine Expat said:
I'm likely repeated some other posts, but if I miss a No Guns sign,

I just apologize, hand them the No Guns = No Money card and walk out the door.

You know this would be an affirmative defense .. you would have to prove a sign was not properly posted. Not a position you want to be in (just cause its going to cost $$$ to defend) ... but it is a defense.

That's why I vehemently hate making such signs mandatory. Its different than a trespassing sign, greatly different. I would never find anyone guilty if I was on a jury of this charge. Jury nullification.

Not seeing a sign that was properly posted -- you better pray people like me are on they jury (and that is like 1 in a million). The law expects you to know every 50,000-150,000 laws you are subject to. I'm sure everyone, on average, breaks at least 1 law a day.

RR_Broccoli · Jul 27, 2012

davidmcbeth said:
You know this would be an affirmative defense .. you would have to prove a sign was not properly posted. Not a position you want to be in (just cause its going to cost $$$ to defend) ... but it is a defense.

That's why I vehemently hate making such signs mandatory. Its different than a trespassing sign, greatly different. I would never find anyone guilty if I was on a jury of this charge. Jury nullification.

Not seeing a sign that was properly posted -- you better pray people like me are on they jury (and that is like 1 in a million). The law expects you to know every 50,000-150,000 laws you are subject to. I'm sure everyone, on average, breaks at least 1 law a day.

I think he meant that once someone TOLD him there was a sign that wasn't predominantly posted.

The sign is notification, legal, its the SAME THING as someone telling you to leave. Either a person can tell you, OR a sign can. You are supposed to treat the sign as someone telling you.

So, if there is a sign, and you miss it because they put it in a stupid place (looking at you Harbor Freight), and nobody says anything you are not notified and therefore, not trespassing. If someone says, "hey, we've got a sign" or "you can't do that here" after that, you are notified and need to leave.

My rule is I walk in (or walk by first) and look, if I see something obvious or know the place due to reputation is posted don't go in armed. If I don't see a sign, I just go in. But, I look pretty carefully.

If in the event there's a citation, at that point pictures and video will be taken of course. Some places post inside, but have doors that are only one way, so it's impossible to no enter all the way to get to the exit without being in violation.

The law needs to be cleaned up on this respect, they were lazy there.

Maine Expat · Jul 27, 2012

^^^ Yep, what he said.

GreenCountyPete · Jul 27, 2012

clean up is needed , but very carefully

samsam · Jul 27, 2012

What if a sign clearly does not meet the legal requirements? Is it invalid? I know of a place that has a 3 or 4 inch circle of a revolver crossed out-no where close to the required 5x7 size requirement... no words or anything. So only revolvers are banned and semi autos ok?

What if i don't see the sign

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