What if i don't see the sign

samsam said:

What if a sign clearly does not meet the legal requirements? Is it invalid? I know of a place that has a 3 or 4 inch circle of a revolver crossed out-no where close to the required 5x7 size requirement... no words or anything. So only revolvers are banned and semi autos ok?

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943.13 (2) (bm) 1. In this paragraph, “sign” means a
sign that states a restriction imposed under subd. 2. that
is at least 5 inches by 7 inches.

So your question really is: is statue a mandatory provision? And if it is mandatory that the sign by 5 by 7 then if not, does this invalidate the other punitive section in such an instance.

With the wording listed here, I do not think it is a mandatory requirement for the sign to by at least 5 by 7 inches. It does not say "shall be 5 by 7" and the absence of the "shall" in the sentence may be interpreted that it is not mandatory but the legislature just gave it as a guide (just so long as it is reasonably viewable).

Now if the other statue references this one and say "shall be made under ... this section" then it would then appear that the dimensions are mandatory.

This section really does not talk about text size so one could have 1 pt font on a 5 by 7 sign .. would this sign be OK? Clearly not. The how about a 48 pt font on a sign measuring 4.5 by 7?

If pushed as a defense I would surely make it one but I would not have high hopes; but if the judge rules that 5 by 7 is mandatory then the plaque or sticker is not a "sign" under this statue.

I assume google scholar showed nothing ... even when the word "shall" is in a statue that does not always mean its mandatory either ... so mandatory v. directory nature of things needs to be reviewed by: looking at case law, looking at legislature's transcripts when the law was discussed, common sense reading, and a guess of the intent of the statue. Mandatory generally means something that is required to have the desired effect of the statue completed.

Clearly a 4.5 by 7 sign could accomplish the notification just as well as a 5 by 7 sign given the lack of font size required. Just my viewpoint. But I'm generally pretty good at guessing how a judge would see things.

Any business I have encountered with a sign, the sign is in plain sight, except for malls for some odd reason. But I always look the first time I visit a business, and not just a quick glance. Some business have cameras on the entrance. If a person is caught on camera reading the sign and tell the responding police they did not see a sign, in some states has turned misdemeanor into a felony. It would be smart to always assume they have a camera.

Well here's a twist to the original topic:

What if you didn't realise you were on school grounds??

I was OCing all day yesterday. Around 6, I was asked to go to South Milwaukee's Lions Fest, so I went.

It was supposed to get cooler last night so I changed my clothes and, as a result, switched to CC for the night.

There were cops all over the Fest grounds, keeping an eye on things.

As the night went on, someone in our group asked where the bathrooms were. Someone else responded, "Right by the school".



I asked where the school was. The way the Fest was setup, I couldn't even see the building. I then found out the entire thing was setup on school grounds.

I had no idea, of course, and I somehow managed to not shoot any children. But seriously, I was really glad at that moment I had decided last minute to not OC. I can just see me arguing my rights, and suddenly realizing I'm violating a GFSZ somewhere during the discussion....

I was still in violation, but of course no one would know that. By the time this all happened we were about ready to leave anyway, so we did.

there are places where the school owns the land and you would have no idea , but it is technically school grounds , it should have to be marked in a way that you would be rather sure to see paint the curb a specific color, post sings every 50 feet fence the hole thing and post at every entrance , you know all the things that they see as reasonable for festivals and businesses to have to do. or make it just school buildings or areas fenced and designated school at the gates

i though the same thing about the 1000 foot rule , if the cop has to measure 3 times to decide if you were inside 1000 feet then he doesn't reasonably know it is a school zone and you should shouldn't be burdened with knowing either , clearly mark it or wave the law

my hopefully soon to be former Church is not posted though a school is off to the left, and attached only by a narrow hallway, out of the Church building proper. you could mistakenly blunder into the Church, to find yourself in a school zone. the powers that be there dont seem to care if you know it or not, and probably wont give a damn if you get a free trip to jail for a GFSZ violation.