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Thread: Open Carry with localities regulations

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    Open Carry with localities regulations

    Hi guys,

    Moving to NC in the next week or so and have a question on Open carry. I currently live in Michigan and have a CPL (concealed pistol license)
    In Michigan there is a Law that prohibits any localities to regulate OP in the cities ETC. My dad just took the CPL course the NRA instructor told him that NC recently passed the same law. I have read in different forums that Cary and Durham prohibit Oc. I was wondering if someone can back me up with more info on the new law passed that does not allow Durham and Cary to no longer regulate...

    Please Help...
    Last edited by sgairp14; 07-25-2012 at 05:01 PM.

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    The sticky with NC flyer should enlighten.
    Last edited by 94 at Large; 07-25-2012 at 04:10 PM.

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    This may help for Cary, or it may just make it worse. FWIW, Durham, Cary, and Chapel Hill have some odd laws that I believe were grandfathered in. Durham has a pistol registration of some sort. Not sure it's really a big issue as no one seems to understand it. Cary does not allow OC on city owned property. Private property is a go. Chapel Hill does not allow the OC of a handgun under 6" total length. Like I said, odd.

    http://www.townofcary.org/Department...wn_of_Cary.htm

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    Ok, So just to verify there was a law passed that will not allow localities to regulate firearm law... But the ones that were in place were grandfathered in.. Correct??

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    These "odd" laws will I hope become a priority (target for removal) for GRNC.

    Only total state preemption over local ordinances will protect LAC from stubbing their toe on needless local legislation. Besides it is the right thing to do.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-26-2012 at 10:25 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    I respectively decline to be the poster child test case in Cary, but read 22-51(c)(2): I would be exercising my legitimate right to self defense.

    It's Durham COUNTY that has registration.

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    Here is NC's preemption statute and it is far from total. It allows some restrictions for cities and counties under other statutes. I tried to look into HB 650 to look for changes but I can't get the entire bill up.


    http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat...14-409.40.html

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Here is NC's preemption statute and it is far from total. It allows some restrictions for cities and counties under other statutes. I tried to look into HB 650 to look for changes but I can't get the entire bill up.


    http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat...14-409.40.html
    The further you go down that trail, the further into the woods you get - and there are briars and things that will bite you waiting. The idea behind preemption is to make things consistent from border to border, not carve out non-conforming booby traps for the unwary, not to make criminals of LAC who step across an invisible line to eat or use the restroom.

    After this was drawn up by the politicians and their good buddies, you all didn't even get kissed.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Been that way for a while Grapeshot. We made some progress in other areas last year though. Incrementalism is a slow process in either direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The idea behind preemption is to make things consistent from border to border, not carve out non-conforming booby traps for the unwary:
    what, people worried about I40 traffic around Cary that would make them think suicide is better than traffic?

    And I agree with grapeshot .. this type of legislation is too much like a booby trap; I would never convict if I was on a jury.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    VERY good link...but...

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    This may help for Cary, or it may just make it worse. FWIW, Durham, Cary, and Chapel Hill have some odd laws that I believe were grandfathered in. Durham has a pistol registration of some sort. Not sure it's really a big issue as no one seems to understand it. Cary does not allow OC on city owned property. Private property is a go. Chapel Hill does not allow the OC of a handgun under 6" total length. Like I said, odd.

    http://www.townofcary.org/Department...wn_of_Cary.htm
    I think you did not read the entire page because the only places they mention that you can NOT open carry are:

    North Carolina law does not allow the open carry of a firearm at certain events such as public parades, funeral processions, picket lines or demonstrations. For more, see NCGS. 14-277.2.

    The places they mention that cannot carry otherwise are places you cannot carry concealed:

    The Town of Cary does not allow a concealed handgun in town-owned buildings, on the appurtenant premises of those buildings, or in town recreation facilities as defined by G.S. 14-415.23, which are all town playgrounds, athletic fields and athletic facilities. A list of recreational facilities shall be set out in a Schedule of Recreational Facilities at which Concealed Handguns are Prohibited which shall be updated as necessary and retained permanently in the office of the Director, Parks, Recreation and Cultural Resources. Notwithstanding the foregoing, nothing in this section shall prohibit a concealed handgun permittee from securing the handgun within an enclosed compartment of a locked motor vehicle. We encourage you to keep firearms and other valuables secured and out of sight. See Section 22-51(1) of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances.

    Now, if we go look at their city ordinance "Sec. 22-51. Prohibition of the carrying and display of handguns, firearms and other weapons at certain public locations."

    (a) Concealed handguns. NOT RELEVANT to open carry - rest snipped
    (b) Other firearms and weapons. No person shall display any firearm or other deadly weapon as defined in G.S. 14-269(a), or any knife having a blade of three inches or longer, BB gun, air gun, paintball gun, airsoft gun, bow and arrow or any type of lethal weapon, while on any public street, alley, sidewalk or other public property within the town, including town greenways, unless specifically permitted or authorized by law. No person shall carry or have possession of a knife having a blade of three inches or longer, a BB gun, air gun, paintball gun, airsoft gun, bow and arrow or any type of lethal weapon in any park, including town greenways. This subsection (b) is not applicable to concealed handguns, which are governed by subsection (a) above. MEANS it covers Open Carry
    (c) Exceptions. The possession or display of a firearm or other weapon is exempt from the provisions of this section 22-51 in the following situations:
    <snip>
    (2) If the possession or display of the firearm, or other weapon, was the result of an individual(s) exercising his or her legitimate right to self defense or the defense of others as allowed by law.This keeps this ordinance in compliance with the 2nd Amendment
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Carolina Guy, even that is wrong. lol Carry at all is prohibited in all those places. The point I'm making is that Cary has been under a lot of pressure to lighten up on OC. Seems to be working. But that page has changed drastically over the last year or so. Looks like it's changed again. It would be nice to see the actual statute change. But from the looks of it they seem less likely to be enforcing it. Would not want to be the test case though.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Any law cannot violate the NC Supreme Court Rulings on Open Carry, and concealed carry. People tend to worry about what is not a problem a tad too much. The Cary ordinance on display is against those rulings, so it is not enforced. But simply if that bothers then avoid those areas, anybody who has been to Cary know how easy that is. Outside of highways Cary is mostly private property.

    Jason IMO they are more worried about a test case then you.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 07-28-2012 at 10:54 AM.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Carolina Guy, even that is wrong. lol Carry at all is prohibited in all those places. The point I'm making is that Cary has been under a lot of pressure to lighten up on OC. Seems to be working. But that page has changed drastically over the last year or so. Looks like it's changed again. It would be nice to see the actual statute change. But from the looks of it they seem less likely to be enforcing it. Would not want to be the test case though.
    From what I read of their ORDINANCE...not statute (NC passes statutes), they are virtually not restricting open carry anywhere that is not already restricted by NC statute. Where are you seeing that "carry at all" is prohibited anywhere not shown in my last post? Got a url?

    Concealed carry is another thing...but even that appears to be in-line with NC statute.

    To me, I wish Concord had the same carry restrictions that Cary does...but alas, Concord has more.

    Time to work on the NC Statutes this next year!
    Last edited by carolina guy; 07-28-2012 at 11:05 AM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgairp14 View Post
    Ok, So just to verify there was a law passed that will not allow localities to regulate firearm law... But the ones that were in place were grandfathered in.. Correct??
    No, there is no grandfathering. Open carry of military sized handguns in public, e.g., streets and sidewalks, is constitutionally protected in North Carolina under State v. Kerner. The 6 inch rule in Chapel Hill is presumably permissible under Kerner.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    No, there is no grandfathering. Open carry of military sized handguns in public, e.g., streets and sidewalks, is constitutionally protected in North Carolina under State v. Kerner. The 6 inch rule in Chapel Hill is presumably permissible under Kerner.
    I think the "concealability" could also depend on the season and manner of dress of the person in question. Sounds like too many variables, and I would think that ANY pistol that is properly holstered and visible would be outside their size regulation.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    I think the "concealability" could also depend on the season and manner of dress of the person in question. Sounds like too many variables, and I would think that ANY pistol that is properly holstered and visible would be outside their size regulation.
    I believe that NC rulings understand the true purpose for the right to bear arms. And that would mean having those same military weapons available to the public for that purpose. Pretty much most weapons are used by a military somewhere, or have been, and I think this would all that be needed to defeat display ordinances. A few weapons like possibly the NAA revolver, or derringers may not be considered military weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    From what I read of their ORDINANCE...not statute (NC passes statutes), they are virtually not restricting open carry anywhere that is not already restricted by NC statute. Where are you seeing that "carry at all" is prohibited anywhere not shown in my last post? Got a url?

    Concealed carry is another thing...but even that appears to be in-line with NC statute.

    To me, I wish Concord had the same carry restrictions that Cary does...but alas, Concord has more.

    Time to work on the NC Statutes this next year!
    NC gives cities and counties authority to restrict OC on property they own, and Cary takes full advantage of that in section (b) of the ordinance you posted. They don't have to. And most cities don't. But they chose too. That said, OC on private property including businesses would not be governed by this.

    They were trying to restrict CC above what the state allowed for a while. I managed to help them see the light on that one I guess. One email, and the page got changed pretty quick. They were trying to restrict CC on city streets and sidewalks. They simply can't do that.

    The places they list as not being able to open carry on the city firearms page are off limits for CC too. There is no carry at all in the listed places. Although there has been some disagreement on the scope of demonstrations. It's scattered over several statutes.

    What extra restrictions does Concord have? I have not heard of any, but I've not looked either.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    NC gives cities and counties authority to restrict OC on property they own, and Cary takes full advantage of that in section (b) of the ordinance you posted. They don't have to. And most cities don't. But they chose too. That said, OC on private property including businesses would not be governed by this.

    They were trying to restrict CC above what the state allowed for a while. I managed to help them see the light on that one I guess. One email, and the page got changed pretty quick. They were trying to restrict CC on city streets and sidewalks. They simply can't do that.

    The places they list as not being able to open carry on the city firearms page are off limits for CC too. There is no carry at all in the listed places. Although there has been some disagreement on the scope of demonstrations. It's scattered over several statutes.

    What extra restrictions does Concord have? I have not heard of any, but I've not looked either.
    You did not read further down to see the "exceptions" to section (b) in section (c)(2) which says "If the possession or display of the firearm, or other weapon, was the result of an individual(s) exercising his or her legitimate right to self defense or the defense of others as allowed by law."

    This exception invalidates part (b) if you are carrying for "self defense."

    The City of Concord does not have this exception language in their ordinances, but at the same time, Concord does not mention "...any public street, alley, sidewalk or other public property within the town, including town greenways, unless specifically permitted or authorized by law". So, I guess overall, it is a wash.

    Here are the codes/ordinances for the City of Concord and here they are for the Town of Cary.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 07-29-2012 at 12:38 AM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Luckily, I have no reason to do business in Cary anymore. It was good while it lasted though. Mainly, I'm just passing along what has been discussed here for a while. It seems that Cary is easing up some. Which is good. But I'm not sure "carrying for self defense" will fly. Maybe, maybe not. I'm fine with it. But I don't write tickets either. If I had to take an under educated guess, I would bet "self defense" is seen as a reaction to a threat in the moment. Not proactively carrying for self defense.

    Basically it seems to boil down to this. OC in Cary is fine on private property, though you may have to speak with officer friendly. On city property, it still seems to be as questionable as ever.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Luckily, I have no reason to do business in Cary anymore. It was good while it lasted though. Mainly, I'm just passing along what has been discussed here for a while. It seems that Cary is easing up some. Which is good. But I'm not sure "carrying for self defense" will fly. Maybe, maybe not. I'm fine with it. But I don't write tickets either. If I had to take an under educated guess, I would bet "self defense" is seen as a reaction to a threat in the moment. Not proactively carrying for self defense.

    Basically it seems to boil down to this. OC in Cary is fine on private property, though you may have to speak with officer friendly. On city property, it still seems to be as questionable as ever.
    Not to nitpick too harshly...but I have to ask this:

    If you can only carry a pistol in "self defense" when you are actively using it (ie. drawn, aimed, firing, etc) to defend yourself, but not other times...what are you supposed to do when attacked/threatened? Ask the assailant for a timeout while you go back to your car, and retrieve your weapon? The purpose of the RKBA is to have the weapon with you in the event you need it, especially in self defense when seconds can mean life and death.

    I think the only rational interpretation of the "self defense" exception to Cary's "carry" ordinance is that you must clearly have it with you for self defense...not just "playing" or other "frivolous" purposes. Perhaps it might be difficult for the Cary Police to disprove...but that is not really our problem, is it?
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    We see this the same way. I just don't think the city of Cary sees it our way. That's about as concisely as I can put it.

    I see them loosing if they pursue this with anyone. As long as that person has the money or connections to defend it properly.

  23. #23
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    We see this the same way. I just don't think the city of Cary sees it our way. That's about as concisely as I can put it.

    I see them loosing if they pursue this with anyone. As long as that person has the money or connections to defend it properly.
    (*Thumbs up*)
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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