Do I have to let LEO run serial # of handgun??

Sig229 · Aug 22, 2012

Numenor said:
Say a cop wanted to disarm you and was going to take your gun no matter what... What if you offered to take the holster off your belt but to leave the firearm still in it and give the entire thing to him "for the safety of all"?

If he allowed this, and if the S/N was covered by the holster, would the cop have the right to unholster the firearm to go run the S/N?

Seems to me that his taking the gun for "safety" would preclude him from subsequently unholstering it.

I mean no disrespect, but judging by the tone of many posters in here, its clear that many of you have never had much interaction with LEO's.

One thing you have to under stand is, there's the law and then there's the actions of law enforcement.

If there arent cameras around, the police can really do what they want within reason.

You think you have rights?

I once got pulled over, car searched, pistol taken off of me and SN read. Why? Because I was "driving through a rough area" (Im white and had to cut rough a black neighborhood of Pittsburgh)

When pulled over asked I politely asked the officers "may I ask why I was pulled over?" and they yelled "thats what we do!"

The bottom line is, when you are confronted by LEO's who do what they want, you really dont have much say in the matter. Okay, you may have a lot of say but there isnt much you can do.

You can have letters, copies of state law and even your attorney on the phone while they harass you.

Bottom line is, if they want to disarm you, run your guns SN, they are going to do it.

I do NOT support this breach of civil liberties by LE, but what I posted above is reality.
The best thing you can do is cover your butt and try to record them acting illegally and then pursue it to the end.

wylde007 · Aug 22, 2012

Sig229 said:
I mean no disrespect, but judging by the tone of many posters in here, its clear that many of you have never had much interaction with LEO's.

I think you would find that assertion to be grossly inaccurate.

I once got pulled over, car searched, pistol taken off of me and SN read. Why? Because I was "driving through a rough area" (Im white and had to cut rough a black neighborhood of Pittsburgh)

Their RAS or PC? Your act of "being" in that place doesn't meet the minimum criteria. You got suckered and you fell for their BS.

Maybe Philly cops have nothing better to do. In fact there have been a number of stories where they've been handed their a**es for detaining and illegally acting against lawful open carriers.

But this isn't Philadelphia. This is Virginia. Your experiences in PA are immaterial to any discussion of VA politics or law enforcement techniques.

Bottom line is, if they want to disarm you, run your guns SN, they are going to do it.

If they do, THEY are breaking the law. Most of our LEO in Virginia know this and several municipalities have been on the losing end of a lawsuit for such behaviour. Maybe you should work on educating your local agents/agencies and stop worrying yourself over problems you won't have [generally] in Virginia.

I do NOT support this breach of civil liberties by LE, but what I posted above is reality.

In Pennsylvania.

Unless an officer is making a custodial arrest, he has no right, no purpose or authority to disarm you or separate you from you property, much less inspect or investigate it without probable cause.

And you are fully within your rights at any time you are NOT under custodial arrest to disengage. If you are being "detained" you will know it immediately. Demand that the officer request a supervisor. Stand your ground. Show some testicular fortitude. For God sake, man. Grow a pair.

peter nap · Aug 22, 2012

wylde007 said:
I think you would find that assertion to be grossly inaccurate.Their RAS or PC? Your act of "being" in that place doesn't meet the minimum criteria. You got suckered and you fell for their BS.

Maybe Philly cops have nothing better to do. In fact there have been a number of stories where they've been handed their a**es for detaining and illegally acting against lawful open carriers.

But this isn't Philadelphia. This is Virginia. Your experiences in PA are immaterial to any discussion of VA politics or law enforcement techniques.If they do, THEY are breaking the law. Most of our LEO in Virginia know this and several municipalities have been on the losing end of a lawsuit for such behaviour. Maybe you should work on educating your local agents/agencies and stop worrying yourself over problems you won't have [generally] in Virginia.In Pennsylvania.

Unless an officer is making a custodial arrest, he has no right, no purpose or authority to disarm you or separate you from you property, much less inspect or investigate it without probable cause.

And you are fully within your rights at any time you are NOT under custodial arrest to disengage. If you are being "detained" you will know it immediately. Demand that the officer request a supervisor. Stand your ground. Show some testicular fortitude. For God sake, man. Grow a pair.

Yep!

I had to chuckle at this one::lol:

Originally Posted by Sig229

I mean no disrespect, but judging by the tone of many posters in here, its clear that many of you have never had much interaction with LEO's.

Marco · Aug 22, 2012

wylde007 said:
Snip~ Stand your ground. Show some testicular fortitude. For God sake, man. Grow a pair.

1+

twoskinsonemanns · Aug 22, 2012

wylde007 said:
You got suckered and you fell for their BS.
Stand your ground. Show some testicular fortitude. For God sake, man. Grow a pair.

It's fine to talk big on the forums. But maybe you can explain your exact "stand your ground" plan? Since your telling others to "grow a pair" I am assuming you already have. So exactly what's your move if a cop goes to take your gun? What exactly are you going to do to stop the cop from searching your car?

What would someone with some fortitude do? Because here's your options. Stand back and watch the cop do whatever he damn well feels like, or physically stop the cop. Please enlighten us.

peter nap · Aug 22, 2012

twoskinsonemanns said:
It's fine to talk big on the forums. But maybe you can explain your exact "stand your ground" plan? Since your telling others to "grow a pair" I am assuming you already have. So exactly what's your move if a cop goes to take your gun? What exactly are you going to do to stop the cop from searching your car?

What would someone with some fortitude do? Because here's your options. Stand back and watch the cop do whatever he damn well feels like, or physically stop the cop. Please enlighten us.

Actually, Wylde has been through it.

It's not as cut and dried as you show it. It's extremely rare that a LEO will outright force his way in your car or search you, without probable suspicion.

They play "COP GAMES" and try to maneuver you into allowing it.

Cop says "I'm going to take your gun for your safety and mine, OK". You simply say, "No, it's not OK".
The game will go on but you get the idea.

99% of the people will blink but if you don't, when the cop runs out of threats, especially if you're recording it and more so if you call for his supervisor....he'll back off.

I've seen video's in Hampton of a cop telling na OC'er with a video camera, "First...turn that off" and he did. If he'd had a bigger pair, he'd just have said "No", and that would have been the beginning of the end of the encounter.

twoskinsonemanns · Aug 22, 2012

peter nap said:
Actually, Wylde has been through it.

It's not as cut and dried as you show it. It's extremely rare that a LEO will outright force his way in your car or search you, without probable suspicion.

They play "COP GAMES" and try to maneuver you into allowing it.

Cop says "I'm going to take your gun for your safety and mine, OK". You simply say, "No, it's not OK".
The game will go on but you get the idea.

99% of the people will blink but if you don't, when the cop runs out of threats, especially if you're recording it and more so if you call for his supervisor....he'll back off.

I've seen video's in Hampton of a cop telling na OC'er with a video camera, "First...turn that off" and he did. If he'd had a bigger pair, he'd just have said "No", and that would have been the beginning of the end of the encounter.

Absolutely I agree with everything you said. But that is not the impression I was getting of Sig's encounter. I doubt Sig gave permission to search the vehicle. Maybe we can get some clarification on the details before calling "coward!".

I'd like to see what people here really do when a cop begins to violate your rights.

peter nap · Aug 22, 2012

twoskinsonemanns said:
Absolutely I agree with everything you said. But that is not the impression I was getting of Sig's encounter. I doubt Sig gave permission to search the vehicle. Maybe we can get some clarification on the details before calling "coward!".

I'd like to see what people here really do when a cop begins to violate your rights.

It's not so much being a coward as being inexperienced.
If you want a great example of sticking by your guns (pun intended) and the cop breaking the law, which the high courts later said was OK because he meant well....look for Tosta Dojen's dashcam video and audio in Roanoke.

wylde007 · Aug 22, 2012

twoskinsonemanns said:
It's fine to talk big on the forums. But maybe you can explain your exact "stand your ground" plan? Since your telling others to "grow a pair" I am assuming you already have. So exactly what's your move if a cop goes to take your gun? What exactly are you going to do to stop the cop from searching your car?

On one hand I could tell you. On the other hand I can be secure enough in myself to not feel it necessary. I choose the latter. Announcing ones intentions, even to an exercise in pure fantasy, could lead to unanticipated consequences in the future.

What would someone with some fortitude do? Because here's your options. Stand back and watch the cop do whatever he damn well feels like, or physically stop the cop. Please enlighten us.

I would love to enlighten you, but I feel my personal beliefs and methodology are best reserved until I need them.

Let's just say I have rights. I believe in them. I believe in defending them as far as the law permits and I refuse to be railroaded by intimidating and/or confounding language from an officer.

So far in the number of encounters I have been in, not one officer has determined it in their interests to disarm me... not even when I was Terry stopped and the discovered I was CC.

If that's not good enough for you, tough noogies.

twoskinsonemanns · Aug 22, 2012

peter nap said:
It's not so much being a coward as being inexperienced.
If you want a great example of sticking by your guns (pun intended) and the cop breaking the law, which the high courts later said was OK because he meant well....look for Tosta Dojen's dashcam video and audio in Roanoke.

Sorry I've always thought "grow a pair" was a reference to courage.
I'll check out the video if I can find it.

Just to be clear I am a HUGE advocate of exercising our rights as completely and as fiercely as possible. If a cop says "boo" and you make a puddle on the floor you should grow a pair. But not everyone is ready to get violent to maintain their rights at this time and I don't think it's condoned here anyway.

wylde007 said:
On one hand I could tell you. On the other hand I can be secure enough in myself to not feel it necessary. I choose the latter. Announcing ones intentions, even to an exercise in pure fantasy, could lead to unanticipated consequences in the future.I would love to enlighten you, but I feel my personal beliefs and methodology are best reserved until I need them.

Let's just say I have rights. I believe in them. I believe in defending them as far as the law permits and I refuse to be railroaded by intimidating and/or confounding language from an officer.

So far in the number of encounters I have been in, not one officer has determined it in their interests to disarm me... not even when I was Terry stopped and the discovered I was CC.

If that's not good enough for you, tough noogies.

That's great Wylde. If everyone had this attitude we'd have a lot more freedom in this country. but.
Your assumption that the result of Sig's encounter was cowardice is unfounded without the details. If someone chooses not to engage in a shooting match with a cop over their car being illegally searched I'm not ready to call them a coward.

peter nap · Aug 22, 2012

twoskinsonemanns said:
But not everyone is ready to get violent to maintain their rights at this time and I don't think it's condoned here anyway.
.

You won't find that discussed much as far as LEO's go.
It's a violation of board policy plus a real poor plan unless you intend to move to Ecuador in the near future.

papa bear · Aug 22, 2012

well i have said it numerous times. you can not legally stop a LEO from violating you. you can tell him no and stick to your guns (pun not intended), in which case he can still proceed. the only thing you can do is record the evidence for trial.

of course you could physically try to stop him. in which case you could end up in a body bag, and him getting, at most, a reprimand

wylde007 · Aug 22, 2012

twoskinsonemanns said:
Your assumption that the result of Sig's encounter was cowardice is unfounded without the details. If someone chooses not to engage in a shooting match with a cop over their car being illegally searched I'm not ready to call them a coward.

My assumption based on what he presented was that he folded without any resistance of any kind. He did everything the officer demanded and was driven by intimidation and officers acting under color of law, whether they had express authority or not.

I didn't suggest or recommend engaging in a gunfight. At least, not that I recall.

twoskinsonemanns · Aug 22, 2012

wylde007 said:
My assumption based on what he presented was that he folded without any resistance of any kind. He did everything the officer demanded and was driven by intimidation and officers acting under color of law, whether they had express authority or not.

I didn't suggest or recommend engaging in a gunfight. At least, not that I recall.

Yup that was the point. You made an assumption that Sig acted cowardly. I didn't like it.
IF the circumstances were as you guessed I would agree with you. But I highly doubt it was the case and will make the assumption, based on the good faith in dedicated OCers to not voluntarily give up their rights, that it was an illegal violation.

Grapeshot · Aug 22, 2012

twoskinsonemanns said:
Yup that was the point. You made an assumption that Sig acted cowardly. I didn't like it.
IF the circumstances were as you guessed I would agree with you. But I highly doubt it was the case and will make the assumption, based on the good faith in dedicated OCers to not voluntarily give up their rights, that it was an illegal violation.

The word "cowardly" or "coward" seems like an escalation IMO, a bit over the top.

"Grow a pair" generally is less harsh and refers to being mature (literally) enough to handle the situation, to act with fortitude, strength, determination; "man up".
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/grow-a-pair

Tanner · Aug 22, 2012

I have started or replied a thread about this very topic some time ago. I belive it is lawfull to resist unlawfull arrest just as it is lawfull to resist unlawfull entry. Some one much wiser than me said something along the lines that its easier to fight this in court rather than on the streets. Resisting a LEO on the streets could get you killed. weather your lawfully resisting or not. Best to let the judge to decide.

riverrat10k · Aug 22, 2012

Twoskins, you are the only one in this thread using the word "cowardly'.

Are your trolling for a rise to report to your masters? You seem to be trying to inflame.

Thundar · Aug 22, 2012

Grapeshot said:
Think you are treading on very serious ground here. Consider OCDO rules and the implied suggestion of using force against a LEO.
Serious repercussions may result from pursuing either avenue - one on this forum & the other with a life style.

But isn't this exactly what the 2nd A is for? ie; to prevent the illegal seizure of our arms by tyrannical government.

Grapeshot · Aug 22, 2012

Originally Posted by Grapeshot

Think you are treading on very serious ground here. Consider OCDO rules and the implied suggestion of using force against a LEO.
Serious repercussions may result from pursuing either avenue - one on this forum & the other with a life style.

Thundar said:
But isn't this exactly what the 2nd A is for? ie; to prevent the illegal seizure of our arms by tyrannical government.

That is in part what our forefathers so stated.

Nevertheless, OCDO requires greater restraint:

Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts. See Forum Rules

Sig229 · Aug 22, 2012

wylde007 said:
I think you would find that assertion to be grossly inaccurate.Their RAS or PC? Your act of "being" in that place doesn't meet the minimum criteria. You got suckered and you fell for their BS.

"Suckered in"? lol Okay, the LEO opens my door from the outside, grasps my left arm, tells me to unbuckle my seat belt, and forces me out of my vehicle, and thats what you call being "suckered in".

Afterward, he and another officer then proceeds to search my vehicle, all while I loudly protest that " I did not give permission for the search of my vehicle" he then sees a loaded spare magazine in my glove box and shouts back "okay, tell that to the judge!" They then pop the truck, see's my Sig 229 and ask "are you even allowed to own a gun?" I say "I am and I have a License to Carry".

After tearing my car apart and finding no drugs or other contraband, they give me a warning for "driving unsafely in weather conditions". It was 23 degrees out, cloudy and no precipitation.

Basically a way to cover their ass.

And you think thats being suckered in.

Well tough guy, I sure wish you would enlighten all of us lowly pions on how you would have handled that situation.

Maybe Philly cops have nothing better to do. In fact there have been a number of stories where they've been handed their a**es for detaining and illegally acting against lawful open carriers.

Pennsylvania is a a large state and has more than cities than Philly. it happened in Pittsburgh where I OC often and never have problems. Another member here by the name of "Prophet" OC's on a daily basis in this city with no problems.

Most of our LEO in Virginia know this and several municipalities have been on the losing end of a lawsuit for such behaviour. Maybe you should work on educating your local agents/agencies and stop worrying yourself over problems you won't have [generally] in Virginia.In Pennsylvania.

Please, all police know when THEY are breaking the law. And Virginia isnt immune to having out of control officers doing what the please.

Unless an officer is making a custodial arrest, he has no right, no purpose or authority to disarm you or separate you from you property, much less inspect or investigate it without probable cause.

Yet it happens every single day all over this nation.

Do I have to let LEO run serial # of handgun??

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