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Thread: How Dangerous are Armed Citizens?

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    How Dangerous are Armed Citizens?

    Howdy Folks!
    In my search for statistics on whether armed citizens make a difference, I ran across this bit that I thought was outstanding!

    http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp
    "That means that firearms are used 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to shoot with criminal intent. Of these defensive shootings, more than 200,000 are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse. About half a million times a year, a citizen carrying a gun away from home uses it in self-defense. Again, according to Kleck amd Gertz, “Citizens shoot and kill more criminals than police do every year [2,819 times versus 303].” Moreover, as George Will pointed out in an article entitled “Are We a Nation of Cowards?” in the November 15, 1993, issue of Newsweek, while police have an error rate of 11 percent when it comes to the accidental shooting of innocent civilians, the armed citizens’ error rate is only 2 percent, making them five times safer than police."

    As anti gunners rev up on the heels of the Aurora shooting, I think it helpful if we can speak to the truth that gun owners make a positive contribution to safety, and save lives on a daily basis.

    Your thoughts?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    My thoughts... well, I'm damned dangerous to anyone bent on criminal intent to me, my family, or innocents! Otherwise, I do honestly pray to my Lord and Savior that I never have to use my weapon to take another life. However, as my pastor says, "The Lord doesn't expect you to sacrifice your life to the evil intents of those who would do you harm." My church has armed (concealed) security. I love my church!
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    That's a very interesting article. I'll have to read it all as soon as I can. Sounds like it favors those who protect themselves.

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    Regular Member Greg30-06's Avatar
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    Great article, both part1 and2. Thanks for the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsman View Post
    My church has armed (concealed) security.
    That's one tough church !

    And the reason why cops have terrible aim is that they don't have to be marksmen...they can accidentally shoot 100 school kids and nothing will happen to them if done in the line of duty.

    We on the other hand have actual responsibilities when handling our weapons. Hence we use our sights. gasp!

    I do like that article ! Thanks for posting OP...I have seen it somewhere before but its always a good read.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsman View Post
    <snip> My church has armed (concealed) security. I love my church!
    I'm glad you love your church.

    Are you allowed to be armed? Is anyone allowed to be armed? It seems that only designated folks are authorized to be armed. Are you comfortable with your life being placed in someone elses hands?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsman View Post
    My thoughts... well, I'm damned dangerous to anyone bent on criminal intent to me, my family, or innocents! Otherwise, I do honestly pray to my Lord and Savior that I never have to use my weapon to take another life. However, as my pastor says, "The Lord doesn't expect you to sacrifice your life to the evil intents of those who would do you harm." My church has armed (concealed) security. I love my church!
    Let the Holy Spirit give you a steady aim and a well placed round. LOVE IT!

    M-T, thanks a TON for that article! It answers perfectly the question of how many "saves" occur that was posed at my local paper's forum.
    Last edited by Maine Expat; 07-26-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Great article.
    My favorite from it:

    "As a judge stated in the 1878 Arkansas case of Wilson v. State,

    If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of constitutional privilege. "
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Great article.
    My favorite from it:

    "As a judge stated in the 1878 Arkansas case of Wilson v. State,

    If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of constitutional privilege. "
    change 'privilege to protections. Though, privilege may have been used differenly back then. Other than that, good quote.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Expat View Post
    Let the Holy Spirit give you a steady aim and a well placed round.
    Every day when I check my ammo and holster my weapon I say the same prayer:

    "Dear gods,
    Send me no need of you,
    But if it is your will,
    Make my shot fast and true."

    While we're looking for statistics, does anyone have a cite on violence against women increasing specifically when gun control is imposed? I keep finding just general crime statistics.

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    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    I really don't want to derail this thread but....

    My pastor is a realist. He understands that we "live IN the world". He understands the very tangible ramifications of that fact. He certainly doesn't condone murder but he makes a clear distinction between that and protecting the sacred gift of life that God gave us all. I don't personally open carry in church. All eyes should be on God not me. However, our conceal carry security starts at the parking lot and continues all the way to within feet of the pulpit. There's kind of an unwritten rule in regards to conceal carry there; don't ask, don't tell. I feel quite safe there myself.

    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    That's one tough church !

    And the reason why cops have terrible aim is that they don't have to be marksmen...they can accidentally shoot 100 school kids and nothing will happen to them if done in the line of duty.

    We on the other hand have actual responsibilities when handling our weapons. Hence we use our sights. gasp!

    I do like that article ! Thanks for posting OP...I have seen it somewhere before but its always a good read.
    That agrees with my feelings as well, us ""civilians"" know we're personally responsible for every round that goes down range whereas for the professionals, 'I acted in good faith' is all that's required'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsman View Post
    I really don't want to derail this thread but....

    My pastor is a realist. He understands that we "live IN the world". He understands the very tangible ramifications of that fact. He certainly doesn't condone murder but he makes a clear distinction between that and protecting the sacred gift of life that God gave us all. I don't personally open carry in church. All eyes should be on God not me. However, our conceal carry security starts at the parking lot and continues all the way to within feet of the pulpit. There's kind of an unwritten rule in regards to conceal carry there; don't ask, don't tell. I feel quite safe there myself.

    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
    Your comment is not a thread derailment. It addresses the OP quite nicely.

    Your church, with a "don't ask don't tell" policy is not exactly self-defense minded. If they are not openly in support of each of Gods creations being allowed to defend themselves then they are simply trying to have it both ways at the same time. If your Preacher/Elders think that a policy that clearly supports you being able to carry in the manner you choose will drive away folks who don't carry then he is worried about what those who don't carry think. He/they are not thinking about you being able to defend yourself and your loved ones.

    All ya gotta do is place the conversation in those terms and see what he/they say. They do not seem quite as 'gun friendly' as you make them out to be. But you feel quite safe.....so.....whatever.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Your comment is not a thread derailment. It addresses the OP quite nicely.

    Your church, with a "don't ask don't tell" policy is not exactly self-defense minded. If they are not openly in support of each of Gods creations being allowed to defend themselves then they are simply trying to have it both ways at the same time. If your Preacher/Elders think that a policy that clearly supports you being able to carry in the manner you choose will drive away folks who don't carry then he is worried about what those who don't carry think. He/they are not thinking about you being able to defend yourself and your loved ones.

    All ya gotta do is place the conversation in those terms and see what he/they say. They do not seem quite as 'gun friendly' as you make them out to be. But you feel quite safe.....so.....whatever.
    Well, I'm gonna take the high road here. Church is God's house. It's a place for all eyes to be on God. It's not a place for agendas or grandstanding to make a political statement. There's a time and place for everything (read Ecclesiastes ch. 3). I feel quite confident that my pastor has made his position clear on the subject of self-defense. I will just say my church would make a very bad target for a BG. End of story. God bless.
    Last edited by Scotsman; 07-26-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    Somwhat related but i read a alright article on suprising enough MSNBC heres the link, http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...s-friends?lite It talks about Owning and training it breifly talks about carrying too, it seems like a straight forward article suprisingly enough, check it out. I have the strangest feeling it came from a member of this forum, but if not we need to get him on board! hope you all enjoy, and as always stay safe!

    “We're your neighbors, your co-workers and your friends,” Lidke said. “We’re moms and dads. We're responsible, ethical and educated.” ( love the quote from the article)
    Last edited by LoneEchoWolf; 07-26-2012 at 05:20 PM.
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    Wow, great article. But....eight shotguns??? Maybe it's my predeliction toward multipurpose and being a big ol' scrooge, but that sounds like a lot. How many Mossberg 500 versions do ya need?

    “When we found out we were pregnant, we bought a crib and a stroller and a gun safe,” Lidke said.

    Love that line. Though, we co-slept our kids to facilitate breastfeeding and I carried my kids in an Ergo carrier rather than deal with the clumsiness of a stroller. I also had a Dadgear Diaper Vest that had all these cool secret compartments for baby essentials. That thing was so damn cool. Totally SWAT Daddy stuff.

    There's been so much traffic, I can't remember, was this posted in this room? Worth reposting anyhow.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/at...4&d=1343059123

    MSNBC also had the only mainstream coverage looking at mental health care rather than gun control as a solution to mass shootings. Still buried in the blogs, though.

    http://leanforward.msnbc.com/_news/2...source=message
    Last edited by mahkagari; 07-26-2012 at 05:58 PM.

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    Regular Member LoneEchoWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Wow, great article. But....eight shotguns??? Maybe it's my predeliction toward multipurpose and being a big ol' scrooge, but that sounds like a lot. How many Mossberg 500 versions do ya need?

    “When we found out we were pregnant, we bought a crib and a stroller and a gun safe,” Lidke said.

    Love that line. Though, we co-slept our kids to facilitate breastfeeding and I carried my kids in an Ergo carrier rather than deal with the clumsiness of a stroller. I also had a Dadgear Diaper Vest that had all these cool secret compartments for baby essentials. That thing was so damn cool. Totally SWAT Daddy stuff.

    There's been so much traffic, I can't remember, was this posted in this room? Worth reposting anyhow.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/at...4&d=1343059123

    MSNBC also had the only mainstream coverage looking at mental health care rather than gun control as a solution to mass shootings. Still buried in the blogs, though.

    http://leanforward.msnbc.com/_news/2...source=message
    Nice! thanks for the share, looks like they might be getting a few things right finally! As for the ammount who knows maybe hes looking forward to passing a couple down to his kid! I know my dad has a ton of rifles and shotguns he has gotton over the years that are either "collectors" to him or just some of his favorites, Cant wait to fill my safe but it will be a long long time haha.
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    Defend the Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land!
    Preserve our great republic and each God-given right,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsman View Post
    Well, I'm gonna take the high road here. Church is God's house. It's a place for all eyes to be on God. It's not a place for agendas or grandstanding to make a political statement. There's a time and place for everything (read Ecclesiastes ch. 3). I feel quite confident that my pastor has made his position clear on the subject of self-defense. I will just say my church would make a very bad target for a BG. End of story. God bless.
    Self defense is not a political statement or grandstanding.....especially if no one knows your are armed because you are CCing.

    take the high road.....worn out phrase. Stay safe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Scotsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Self defense is not a political statement or grandstanding.....especially if no one knows your are armed because you are CCing.

    take the high road.....worn out phrase. Stay safe.
    You know I was going to just leave this alone BUT.... I would think that we are all on the same side here. While you may not appreciate my "cliche" verbiage such as "I'm going to take the high road here", I don't appreciate comments such as "whatever" and "worn out phrase" from someone who is supposed to be on the same side of this issue. While you may not agree with my position 100% (and that certainly is your right) I would expect a modicum of decorum from a fellow forum member. Now perhaps I am taking this out of context since this is the internet but I am from the south and we southerners try diligently to be polite even to those whom with which we disagree. Perhaps things are different where you live. I don't know. In any case you are welcome to disagree with me on any point but there is no reason to inject any hint of attitude because you don't agree with my position. Trust me...I can be quite abrasive when warranted but that's an avenue I tend to avoid in most situations because it's usually unproductive. So, I am asking politely to keep this thread civil. Fair enough?

    While I don't want to go off on a tangent here I guess it's unavoidable...at least for me. My personal opinion on church is as follows:

    The primary purpose of The House of The Lord is worship plain and simple. He takes precedence over everything in my world...including guns. While there are plenty of armed church members where I go, I do not think it is appropriate to elevate this fact to the point that it detracts from the primary reason we attend church because:

    A.) It detracts from worship of The Lord
    B.) Making a big deal out of promoting guns in church may keep someone from coming to The Lord (not everybody is comfortable with the subject of weapons)
    C.) Church is not about my relationship with my weapon, it is about my relationship with my Creator

    Just as I expect others to be tolerant of my positions, so must I be tolerant of the positions of others. I answer to my God first and foremost. I do not want to be responsible for coming between God and someone else who may be seeking salvation.

    Now you may think I'm a religious zealot based upon this post but the truth is I am just a man seeking Truth as I try to live a righteous life "in the world". I am a Christian but I fail and stumble all the time. It comes with the territory. I think for myself and I make informed decisions based upon rationale and observation. I am a hardcore 2A proponent and I feel comfortable with my House of Worship. You might feel the same way if you experienced my church... perhaps not. That's the beauty of this country. We are free to agree or disagree...but please, let's keep it civil.

    Thank you for your consideration. May God bless you and your family.

    p.s. My church organizes conceal carry classes on a pretty regular basis for its members.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I retract 'whatever' and 'worn out phrase'.

    <snip> it detracts from the primary reason we attend church because:

    A.) It detracts from worship of The Lord
    B.) Making a big deal out of promoting guns in church may keep someone from coming to The Lord (not everybody is comfortable with the subject of weapons)
    C.) Church is not about my relationship with my weapon, it is about my relationship with my Creator
    A) How? Do you believe that being armed, CC, will detract from the service and distract you and/or others while in church?
    B) Having a private conversation with your Preacher to get permission to CC is not making a big deal of promoting guns in church.
    C) I'm sure your firearm will not care that you are focused on our Creator.

    Just as I expect others to be tolerant of my positions, so must I be tolerant of the positions of others. I answer to my God first and foremost. I do not want to be responsible for coming between God and someone else who may be seeking salvation.
    You are concerned that other folks may not attend your church if they know you are armed. But, they will choose to attend your church because they know that folks other than you are armed.

    Now you may think I'm a religious zealot based upon this post but the truth is I am just a man seeking Truth as I try to live a righteous life "in the world".
    No, I do not think you are a religious zealot. I never stated or inferred such a thing. In fact I did not even address your faith, just the issue of carrying in church.

    I am a Christian <snip>
    +1 to you Sir

    Thank you for your consideration. May God bless you and your family.
    Ditto

    p.s. My church organizes conceal carry classes on a pretty regular basis for its members.
    Irrelevant to you being able to carry in your church for your own self defense.

    Stay safe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, back at the topic...

    Howdy Folks!
    What I find, as I look for information about guns used by citizens for self defense, and the defense of others, is how often cops end up shooting the wrong person compared to how often it happens among LAC's.

    Does anybody else find it incongruous that 11% of police shootings end up taking out the wrong person compared to only 2% of armed citizens?
    Or that some 2,800+ badguys are shot by ctizens compared to only 300+ for cops in a given year?

    We hear about how the cops are all highly trained, but the information I am seeing is that cops are less effective at stopping a crime in progress (likely because armed citizens are in more public places than cops in general) and that cops are not immune from firearms mishaps.

    Thanks for sharing folks!
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsman View Post
    My thoughts... well, I'm damned dangerous to anyone bent on criminal intent to me, my family, or innocents! Otherwise, I do honestly pray to my Lord and Savior that I never have to use my weapon to take another life. However, as my pastor says, "The Lord doesn't expect you to sacrifice your life to the evil intents of those who would do you harm."
    I was going to come up with some sort of witty post, but yours works just fine for me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    What I find, as I look for information about guns used by citizens for self defense, and the defense of others, is how often cops end up shooting the wrong person compared to how often it happens among LAC's.

    Does anybody else find it incongruous that 11% of police shootings end up taking out the wrong person compared to only 2% of armed citizens?
    Or that some 2,800+ badguys are shot by ctizens compared to only 300+ for cops in a given year?

    We hear about how the cops are all highly trained, but the information I am seeing is that cops are less effective at stopping a crime in progress (likely because armed citizens are in more public places than cops in general) and that cops are not immune from firearms mishaps.

    Thanks for sharing folks!
    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    This little factoid has proven to be very effective at stopping the antis in their misguided tracks in every forum discussion I've been involved in recently. They simply have no answer for it.

    9400 gun murders versus 34000 vehicular deaths (2010) slows them down quite nicely too, but the 11% vs 2% thing shuts them right down, especially when I ask, "WHO would you rather be with in a shoot out?"
    “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.” ― Plato

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    What I find, as I look for information about guns used by citizens for self defense, and the defense of others, is how often cops end up shooting the wrong person compared to how often it happens among LAC's.

    Does anybody else find it incongruous that 11% of police shootings end up taking out the wrong person compared to only 2% of armed citizens?
    Actually, this makes sense, given the difference in roles and procedures between the two groups:

    Armed citizens:
    - routinely avoid locations and situations prone to crime
    - do not receive frequent and regular calls to assist with violent and potentially lethal situations
    - most encounters occur in isolated situations, separate from innocent people

    LEOs:
    - routinely patrol locations and situations prone to crime
    - do receive frequent and regular calls to assist with violent and potentially lethal situations
    - many encounters occur in crowded situations, near innocent people

    Bottom line, cops move towards situations where shootings are both more likely to occur as well as involve innocent people.

    Or that some 2,800+ badguys are shot by ctizens compared to only 300+ for cops in a given year?
    The reasons I gave above do not explain this. What does, however, is the fact that LEOs are specifically trained not to use lethal force except as a last resort. They'll escalate along the following path: verbal-physical-baton-mace-taser before they'll use their firearms.

    We citizens aren't trained along these lines and we know it. We're more or less trained to follow this path: avoid-escape-verbal-firearm.

    We hear about how the cops are all highly trained, but the information I am seeing is that cops are less effective at stopping a crime in progress (likely because armed citizens are in more public places than cops in general) and that cops are not immune from firearms mishaps.
    Only 1 in 375 of us are law enforcement officers at local, county, state, or federal levels, yet 1 in 2 of us own firearms, and 1 in 20 routinely carries a firearm. At home, we're 187 times more likely to be the first armed individual at the scene of a break-in to our own home than a is a cop. Out and about, we're nearly 20 times more likely to be present at the scene of a crime as it begins. I'd increase this figure significantly, however, perhaps to 50 times more likely, as criminals are always on the lookout for cops. They're not always on the lookout for armed citizens. Let's compromise, though, as most LEOs CC, and call it 35 times more likely to be present at the scene of a non-at-home crime when it begins than is an LEO.

    Key Point: So, 10 times more bad guys are shot by LACs than by LEOs, yet we're at least 20 times more likely to be present at the scene of a crime when it begins than is an LEO. This tells me that when it comes to shooting bad guys, we have twice the restraint of your average LEO. This jibes with with the figure that we're 5 times less likely to shoot innocent civilians than are LEOs.

    I'm well aware of what qualifications they look for in LEO candidates, and I'll guarantee you one of those qualities is lean-forward aggressiveness. I suspect that's the primary reason behind these ratios, these differences between LACs and LEOs.
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    Nice analysis, Since9.

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