How Dangerous are Armed Citizens?

Meanwhile, back at the topic...

Howdy Folks!
What I find, as I look for information about guns used by citizens for self defense, and the defense of others, is how often cops end up shooting the wrong person compared to how often it happens among LAC's.

Does anybody else find it incongruous that 11% of police shootings end up taking out the wrong person compared to only 2% of armed citizens?
Or that some 2,800+ badguys are shot by ctizens compared to only 300+ for cops in a given year?

We hear about how the cops are all highly trained, but the information I am seeing is that cops are less effective at stopping a crime in progress (likely because armed citizens are in more public places than cops in general) and that cops are not immune from firearms mishaps.

Thanks for sharing folks!
Blessings,
M-Taliesin

Scotsman said:

My thoughts... well, I'm damned dangerous to anyone bent on criminal intent to me, my family, or innocents! Otherwise, I do honestly pray to my Lord and Savior that I never have to use my weapon to take another life. However, as my pastor says, "The Lord doesn't expect you to sacrifice your life to the evil intents of those who would do you harm."

Click to expand...

I was going to come up with some sort of witty post, but yours works just fine for me!

M-Taliesin said:

Howdy Folks!
What I find, as I look for information about guns used by citizens for self defense, and the defense of others, is how often cops end up shooting the wrong person compared to how often it happens among LAC's.

Does anybody else find it incongruous that 11% of police shootings end up taking out the wrong person compared to only 2% of armed citizens?
Or that some 2,800+ badguys are shot by ctizens compared to only 300+ for cops in a given year?

We hear about how the cops are all highly trained, but the information I am seeing is that cops are less effective at stopping a crime in progress (likely because armed citizens are in more public places than cops in general) and that cops are not immune from firearms mishaps.

Thanks for sharing folks!
Blessings,
M-Taliesin

Click to expand...

This little factoid has proven to be very effective at stopping the antis in their misguided tracks in every forum discussion I've been involved in recently. They simply have no answer for it. :monkey

9400 gun murders versus 34000 vehicular deaths (2010) slows them down quite nicely too, but the 11% vs 2% thing shuts them right down, especially when I ask, "WHO would you rather be with in a shoot out?"

M-Taliesin said:

What I find, as I look for information about guns used by citizens for self defense, and the defense of others, is how often cops end up shooting the wrong person compared to how often it happens among LAC's.

Does anybody else find it incongruous that 11% of police shootings end up taking out the wrong person compared to only 2% of armed citizens?

Click to expand...

Actually, this makes sense, given the difference in roles and procedures between the two groups:

Armed citizens:
- routinely avoid locations and situations prone to crime
- do not receive frequent and regular calls to assist with violent and potentially lethal situations
- most encounters occur in isolated situations, separate from innocent people

LEOs:
- routinely patrol locations and situations prone to crime
- do receive frequent and regular calls to assist with violent and potentially lethal situations
- many encounters occur in crowded situations, near innocent people

Bottom line, cops move towards situations where shootings are both more likely to occur as well as involve innocent people.

Or that some 2,800+ badguys are shot by ctizens compared to only 300+ for cops in a given year?

Click to expand...

The reasons I gave above do not explain this. What does, however, is the fact that LEOs are specifically trained not to use lethal force except as a last resort. They'll escalate along the following path: verbal-physical-baton-mace-taser before they'll use their firearms.

We citizens aren't trained along these lines and we know it. We're more or less trained to follow this path: avoid-escape-verbal-firearm.

We hear about how the cops are all highly trained, but the information I am seeing is that cops are less effective at stopping a crime in progress (likely because armed citizens are in more public places than cops in general) and that cops are not immune from firearms mishaps.

Click to expand...

Only 1 in 375 of us are law enforcement officers at local, county, state, or federal levels, yet 1 in 2 of us own firearms, and 1 in 20 routinely carries a firearm. At home, we're 187 times more likely to be the first armed individual at the scene of a break-in to our own home than a is a cop. Out and about, we're nearly 20 times more likely to be present at the scene of a crime as it begins. I'd increase this figure significantly, however, perhaps to 50 times more likely, as criminals are always on the lookout for cops. They're not always on the lookout for armed citizens. Let's compromise, though, as most LEOs CC, and call it 35 times more likely to be present at the scene of a non-at-home crime when it begins than is an LEO.

Key Point: So, 10 times more bad guys are shot by LACs than by LEOs, yet we're at least 20 times more likely to be present at the scene of a crime when it begins than is an LEO. This tells me that when it comes to shooting bad guys, we have twice the restraint of your average LEO. This jibes with with the figure that we're 5 times less likely to shoot innocent civilians than are LEOs.

I'm well aware of what qualifications they look for in LEO candidates, and I'll guarantee you one of those qualities is lean-forward aggressiveness. I suspect that's the primary reason behind these ratios, these differences between LACs and LEOs.

Nice analysis, Since9.

since9 said:

actually, this makes sense, given the difference in roles and procedures between the two groups:

Armed citizens:
- routinely avoid locations and situations prone to crime
- do not receive frequent and regular calls to assist with violent and potentially lethal situations
- most encounters occur in isolated situations, separate from innocent people

leos:
- routinely patrol locations and situations prone to crime
- do receive frequent and regular calls to assist with violent and potentially lethal situations
- many encounters occur in crowded situations, near innocent people

bottom line, cops move towards situations where shootings are both more likely to occur as well as involve innocent people.
<snip>

Click to expand...

(*thumbs up*)

since9 said:

Actually, this makes sense, given the difference in roles and procedures between the two groups:

Armed citizens:
- routinely avoid locations and situations prone to crime
- do not receive frequent and regular calls to assist with violent and potentially lethal situations
- most encounters occur in isolated situations, separate from innocent people

LEOs:
- routinely patrol locations and situations prone to crime
- do receive frequent and regular calls to assist with violent and potentially lethal situations
- many encounters occur in crowded situations, near innocent people

Bottom line, cops move towards situations where shootings are both more likely to occur as well as involve innocent people.

Click to expand...

Would you be willing to qualify your analysis based on demographic/geographic factors. Not all jurisdictions have the same level of crime as other jurisdictions, let alone a 'rough part of town' for a LEO to patrol. In other words, if a LEAs jurisdiction is relatively crime free they have a really good gig.

You will even find that the NYPD has 'quiet beats' and 'not so quiet beats'.

The reasons I gave above do not explain this. What does, however, is the fact that LEOs are specifically trained not to use lethal force except as a last resort. They'll escalate along the following path: verbal-physical-baton-mace-taser before they'll use their firearms.

We citizens aren't trained along these lines and we know it. We're more or less trained to follow this path: avoid-escape-verbal-firearm.

Click to expand...

It would be nice if all cops followed this escalation of force process, sadly most do not. Time is a constraint that cops feel they have to deal with very quickly, I'll amend to a verbal-physical-zap or bang.