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Thread: Compromise or Surrender?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Compromise or Surrender?

    I just wanted to conduct an unofficial poll.



    Would you rather have waited to have constitutional OC rather than the current law which presents some obvious Fourth and Fifth Amendment violations?

    Would you rather sacrifice your Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights in order to OC sooner rather than later?




    And please don't give me the crap about, "without the current language it would have never passed." I'm prepared to accept that hypothetical for the sake of this poll.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

  2. #2
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    I'm happy.

    I'm thrilled with what we achieved this year. It's not perfect, but it's an improvement over what we had before, and it's a stepping stone toward actual compliance with the 2nd amendment.

    I don't think we've necessarily sacrificed our 4th and 5th amendment rights. Oklahoma statute may not be constitutional, but that's what the constitution is for. If an officer oversteps is bounds, we just have to file suit on constitutional grounds.

  3. #3
    Regular Member khelben762's Avatar
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    As much as i would like constitutional carry and may at times oc the problem i have with waiting is that i prefer to carry full size arms and i also ride a motorcycle. under current law i get the short end of the stick if while riding my shirt rides up and shows my ccw.

    Unfortunately when dealing with law and the uneducated there must be some give and take or a gradual lead into that which should be commonly understood. Do I like it this way? No. It is however the way things are at current and good change comes slowly.
    Last edited by khelben762; 07-26-2012 at 08:15 PM. Reason: sry not an english major lol

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    Can someone please enlighten me on which rights under the 4th and 5th amendments we are actually forfeiting? And how?

    In the mean time, as much as I would like to regain our full Constitutional rights immediately, it just ainít gonna happen. We lost them slowly, and that is more than likely how we will have to win them back.
    Itís not the best way, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

    bob

  5. #5
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Vest View Post
    Can someone please enlighten me on which rights under the 4th and 5th amendments we are actually forfeiting? And how?

    In the mean time, as much as I would like to regain our full Constitutional rights immediately, it just ain’t gonna happen. We lost them slowly, and that is more than likely how we will have to win them back.
    It’s not the best way, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

    bob
    If we follow the letter of the law in SB1733:

    4th Amendment - We must produce ID and SDA license without RAS that a crime has been committed.

    5th Amendment - The duty to inform portion (or shall notify).

    Why shouldn't we be able to regain our rights immediately?
    Last edited by Springfield Smitty; 07-26-2012 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Added a question
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield Smitty View Post
    If we follow the letter of the law in SB1733:

    4th Amendment - We must produce ID and SDA license without RAS that a crime has been committed.

    5th Amendment - The duty to inform portion (or shall notify).

    Why shouldn't we be able to regain our rights immediately?
    Question? What is your proposal. What are you going to do. Are you going to openly carry, or are you going to complain. We have been givin some of our rights back. Are you going to the State Capital and talk to senators and Representatives. Are you talking to the fence sitter who can go either way. Are you convincing the anti gun groups that their wrong. Give us some actions that you have taken prior to the Govenors signature.
    I know your frustrated as are many of us. Last year both the senate and the house passed bills for open carry but were shut down by the Govenor. Fortunately we have a new Govenor who passed what she considered a sensible bill. We have taken a small step forward. There is a long way to go. Any and all help is appreciated.
    Like you I'm retired military. Like you I have taken an oath to protect our constitutional rights that in some cases no longer exists and or being slowly eroded away.
    Changeing the laws as they now exisists are slow to come. Constitutional carry can come about, but its going to take a lot of leg work to change peoples minds. Any step forward beats losing everything.
    George D. Rodriguez
    T/Sgt USAF Ret

  7. #7
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gprod55 View Post
    Question? What is your proposal. My proposal was that we don't settle for anything less than constitutional carry. What are you going to do. Are you going to openly carry, or are you going to complain. I plan to do both!! I will OC and if asked for ID/SDA license without RAS that a crime has been committed or when the only reason for such interrogatory investigation is the presence of a firearm, I will refuse to provide either. We have been givin some of our rights back. No rights have been given back. The carry of a handgun whether concealed or unconcealed is a privilege in the state of Oklahoma (hence the license requirement). Are you going to the State Capital and talk to senators and Representatives. Are you talking to the fence sitter who can go either way. To be honest, I made many calls to try to convince legislative personnel to vote down SB1733 and reinstate constitutional carry. Are you convincing the anti gun groups that their wrong. I'm trying my best to fight the good fight. Give us some actions that you have taken prior to the Govenors signature. See above.
    I know your frustrated as are many of us. Last year both the senate and the house passed bills for open carry but were shut down by the Govenor. I am aware. Fortunately we have a new Govenor who passed what she considered a sensible bill. Too bad for us. We have taken a small step forward. I disagree. There is a long way to go. Any and all help is appreciated.
    Like you I'm retired military. Like you I have taken an oath to protect our constitutional rights that in some cases no longer exists and or being slowly eroded away.
    Changeing the laws as they now exisists are slow to come. Constitutional carry can come about, but its going to take a lot of leg work to change peoples minds. Any step forward beats losing everything.
    George D. Rodriguez
    T/Sgt USAF Ret

    I hope the items above in bold satisfy your requests / inquiries. I tried my best to attempt to decipher the multitude of grammatical errors...
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    My view is, baby steps when needed (and they are here, imo). And while there are issues, that can actually help us in getting the law "fixed" down the road by point out those unconstitutional bits while pushing for better change. Allows us to say "see, no blood in the streets. Oh and this currently violates the Constitution, so that needs to be fixed as well."

    It isn't like the old law didn't violate both state and federal Constitutions already. I mean there's the whole thing about not being able to require a permit to exercise a right (SCOTUS ruling, I can find this for you tomorrow if you want the cite; or you can find it in the "Law Library" section as I asked it in there awhile back and got a response), but yet that's exactly how it is in OK. And then there's how Title 21 Section 1272 goes directly against OK Constitution Article II-26 and the bad case-law that goes with that. The current law, imo is but one step in fixing these issues as opposed to trying to do a single standing long jump, falling in the sand, and having to try again from the same spot.

  9. #9
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield Smitty View Post
    If we follow the letter of the law in SB1733:

    4th Amendment - We must produce ID and SDA license without RAS that a crime has been committed.

    5th Amendment - The duty to inform portion (or shall notify).

    Why shouldn't we be able to regain our rights immediately?
    I disagree with you are giving up your 4th ammendment rights...but that may need a court challenge to prove. IMHO, they still have to have a REASON to stop you and ask for the ID...if not, and your (presumedly legal) OC is the only reason for the stop..well, it's high ho, high ho...it's off it federal court we go.

    As for the duty to inform...I think that is very bad law...why? You, as a law abiding citizen must comply...a person with an illegal or unlicensed weapon won't comply, and legally does not have to. Why do they not have to? 5th ammendment. Been through federal court in OH, (another "must inform" state), and the state lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield Smitty View Post
    I hope the items above in bold satisfy your requests / inquiries. I tried my best to attempt to decipher the multitude of grammatical errors...
    Oh my another english major. My multitude of grammatical errors shows that I am not an english major. But You understood my meaning. Your phone calls to your government representative is a step in the right direction, but showing up in his or her office meeting them face to face makes a deeper impact. Showing up in their office with a group of voters makes a larger impact. I hope you have deep pockets to afford a good lawyer. The law doesn't go into effect until November 1st. We still have that much time to work on law enforcement to train them on open carry laws.
    All we can do is wait and see what happens after November 1st. Maybe we can change enough of their minds not to hassle the public who choose to open carry. Hopefully I'll be seeing you at the capital building when they decide to go back in session. Let the leg work begin.

  11. #11
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    As a Coloradoan who spends an awful lot of time in Baja Oklahoma (Texas), but also travels to Choctaw, OK regularly to visit my daughter's family - A BIG THANK YOU to all of you hardworking Okie's who SUCCEEDED in accomplishing what Texans failed to accomplish during their last legislative session in 2011.

    You should all be pleased - and very satisfied with what you have accomplished.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gprod55 View Post
    Oh my another english major. Not by any means. My multitude of grammatical errors shows that I am not an english major. But You understood my meaning. I tried my best. Hence the part where I said I hope I addressed all of your concerns. Your phone calls to your government representative is a step in the right direction, but showing up in his or her office meeting them face to face makes a deeper impact. Showing up in their office with a group of voters makes a larger impact. I hope you have deep pockets to afford a good lawyer. The law doesn't go into effect until November 1st. We still have that much time to work on law enforcement to train them on open carry laws.
    All we can do is wait and see what happens after November 1st. Maybe we can change enough of their minds not to hassle the public who choose to open carry. Hopefully I'll be seeing you at the capital building when they decide to go back in session. Let the leg work begin.
    I will do the best I can, but I don't have the ability to go down to the capital. I'm glad that you do though. I do the best I can with the resources I have. I'm glad you have more than me though. We need people with those resources. Hopefully people like you will support OKOCA and their efforts in educating LEA's. Or maybe you'd do a better job yourself since you seem to have a lot of influence in the Capital.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield Smitty View Post
    I will do the best I can, but I don't have the ability to go down to the capital. I'm glad that you do though. I do the best I can with the resources I have. I'm glad you have more than me though. We need people with those resources. Hopefully people like you will support OKOCA and their efforts in educating LEA's. Or maybe you'd do a better job yourself since you seem to have a lot of influence in the Capital.
    Being retired military and on social security (due to age). Thank God I still have my health. Living 45 miles from the Capital allows me an occasional trip in. Being a member of the OK2A, we have a person who regularly attends the meetings concerning Oklahomas gun laws. He volunteers his time to do this utilizing his lunch time. Were you able to attend the gun display held at the capital? Various gun dealers showed up to display their weapons. This was a first for our state to allow guns even if they were unloaded in the capital building. It was quite a show. While there, enmass, we were able to confront senators and representatives. Our presence was well noted. During the meetings held in OKC, we regularly have senators or representatives attend while they are in session. They are open to questions after the meeting is over.
    Now that they are in recess, you can ask your local officials to attend for the purpose of answering questions your members might have. This is just a way to meet your elected officials and let them know what you as voters want.
    The timeing is great, now, for them to respond to your invitation, as this is an election year and many of them will, givin the opportunity, show up looking for votes.
    Just because I belong to a different group doesn't mean that our goals are different. Were both looking for constitutional carry.
    At the moment were taking baby steps to achieve our goal. An ant can move mountains one grain at a time.

  14. #14
    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield Smitty View Post
    I just wanted to conduct an unofficial poll.



    Would you rather have waited to have constitutional OC rather than the current law which presents some obvious Fourth and Fifth Amendment violations?

    Would you rather sacrifice your Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights in order to OC sooner rather than later?




    And please don't give me the crap about, "without the current language it would have never passed." I'm prepared to accept that hypothetical for the sake of this poll.
    Take what we got and keep working on the rest. It's kinda like a race. Do you wait until something comes along that deposits you at the finish line, or do you start walking until you get there.

  15. #15
    Regular Member FireHawk911's Avatar
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    I think that what we have is a great start, I just want to say to OKOCA that y'all did a great job. Foot is in the door and we are set up for an easy battle for constitutional carry with the recip for non issuing states that also begins 11-1-12. Thanks!!!!

  16. #16
    Regular Member ethorman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield Smitty View Post
    I just wanted to conduct an unofficial poll.



    Would you rather have waited to have constitutional OC rather than the current law which presents some obvious Fourth and Fifth Amendment violations?

    Would you rather sacrifice your Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights in order to OC sooner rather than later?




    And please don't give me the crap about, "without the current language it would have never passed." I'm prepared to accept that hypothetical for the sake of this poll.
    I think that we made pretty good steps this year, but to keep fighting for constitutional carry. I think it will take a lot of work, but hopefully with OKOCA we will be able to keep trucking until that goal is met, if it is not I am still happy as I can OC when I feel necessary. I will be glad to take the LEOs time whenever they feel the need to respond to my location because there is a MWAG, however I wonder exactly where that 100dollars that I spent on my license actually went....? I am sure it went to the workers at OSBI...

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