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Thread: Current laws against OC???

  1. #1
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    Current laws against OC???

    Hello fellow gun owners/carriers/enthusiasts! I'm new here and need some kind of a solid answer, it might not be possible but there has to be something.
    With the new bill starting in November, I have been trying to find out what has been stopping us from carrying openly up to this point. I came across this in the Oklahoma Self Defense Act.

    Title 21 1289.6 CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH FIREARMS MAY BE CARRIED
    A. A person shall be permitted to carry loaded or unloaded shotguns, rifles, and pistols, open and not concealed and without a handgun liscense as authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, sections 1 through 26 of this act, pursuant to the following conditions
    1. When hunting animals or fowl;
    2. During competition in or practicing in a safety or hunter safety class, target shooting, skeet, trap or other recognized sporting events;
    3. During participation in or in preparation for a military function of the state military forces to be defined as the Oklahoma Army or Air National Guard, Federal Military Reserve and active military forces;
    4. During participation In or in preparation for a recognized police function of either a municipal, county or state goverment as functioning police officials;
    5. During a practice for or a performance for entertainment purposes; or
    6. For any legitimate purpose not in violation of the Oklahoma Firearms Act of 1971, sections 1289.1 through 1289.17 of this title or any legislative enactment regarding the use, ownership and control of firearms.
    Number 6 is the kicker. Isn't getting gas, going grocery shopping, or walking down the street to a friends house legitimate purposes? I have searched the Internet , read the Self Defense Act MANY times front to back, and have read Title 21 in its entirety and can not find anything saying that this section of the Firearms act or Self Defense Act is null and void.

    Does anybody know where it states that OC is illegal? Am I missing something here? Is it possible that we have stopped excersising our right because we have been told for so long that it's against the law and that's it? As a gun owner/carryer, am I expecting to much to think that a law of this nature should be easy to find? Thank you for any input you have regarding this and sorry for the long read, but apparently I am not getting it LOL :-)

  2. #2
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Here is what I was able to find:

    TITLE 21 1290.26 RECIPROCAL AGREEMENT AUTHORITY
    The State of Oklahoma hereby recognizes any valid concealed carry weapons permit or license issued by another state.
    Any person entering this state in possession of a firearm authorized for concealed carry upon the authority and license of another state is authorized to continue to carry a concealed firearm and license in this state; provided the license from the other state remains valid. The firearm must be carried fully concealed from detection and view, and upon coming in contact with any peace officer of this state, the person must disclose the fact that he or she is in possession of a concealed firearm pursuant to a valid concealed carry weapons permit or license issued in another state. Any person who is twenty-one (21) years of age or older having a valid firearm license from another state may apply for a concealed handgun license in this state immediately upon establishing a residence in this state.

    Maybe someone else will have a better answer for you.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    In order to understand the why of OK's not (yet) allowing OC you are going to need to go beyond searching the statute books. The rubber meets the road at case law - the decisions made by the courts on how the law(s) should be interpreted.

    These folks http://www.okshooters.com/index.php?...tpage&Itemid=1 seem to have been involved in getting the OC law in front of and passed by the OK legislature. Being so they might be a resource for the relevant case law.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  4. #4
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    Title 21, Section 1272:

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her person, or in a purse or other container belonging to the person, any pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle whether loaded or unloaded or any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or unconcealed, except this section shall not prohibit:

    1. The proper use of guns and knives for hunting, fishing, educational or recreational purposes;

    2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act;

    3. The carrying, possession and use of any weapon by a peace officer or other person authorized by law to carry a weapon in the performance of official duties and in compliance with the rules of the employing agency;

    4. The carrying or use of weapons in a courthouse by a district judge, associate district judge or special district judge within this state, who is in possession of a valid concealed handgun license issued pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act and whose name appears on a list maintained by the Administrative Director of the Courts; or

    5. The carrying and use of firearms and other weapons provided in this subsection when used for the purpose of living history reenactment. For purposes of this paragraph, "living history reenactment" means depiction of historical characters, scenes, historical life or events for entertainment, education, or historical documentation through the wearing or use of period, historical, antique or vintage clothing, accessories, firearms, weapons, and other implements of the historical period.

    B. Any person convicted of violating the foregoing provision shall be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable as provided in Section 1276 of this title.
    The bolded part is what makes it illegal to currently OC. Now #2 would make it seem that one would be able to carry OC or CC w/o a permit if they were to carry for self defense purposes due to Article II-26 of the state Constitution which states:
    The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power, when thereunto legally summoned, shall never be prohibited; but nothing herein contained shall prevent the Legislature from regulating the carrying of weapons.
    But this bit is basically thrown out due to bad case-law. You will note that this bit states "SHALL NEVER BE PROHIBITED" but yet that is exactly what 1272 does, it prohibits the carry of all those listed weapons even for defense. Sadly I don't know the applicable case-law off the top of my head, but I believe there are three seperate cases that have attempted this and the rulings were always against the citizens.

  5. #5
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    Most of the case law behind open carry is based upon Pierce v State from 1929. This set a bad precedent and has never been overturned.

    http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...p?citeid=38162

    1272 makes open carry illegal and then lists the enumerations for when carrying a firearm is legal. The problem is that self-defense has never been determined to be a legitimate purpose.

    Most incorporated cities have ordinances against discharging a firearm withing city limits so you can't claim hunting or target practice or being outside with a firearm. No one out in the sticks is going to complain about the farmer or rancher carrying a firearm on their own land.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

  6. #6
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    Farmer or Rancher

    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    No one out in the sticks is going to complain about the farmer or rancher carrying a firearm on their own land.
    Amen to that!!!

    The Dove

  7. #7
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeneral76 View Post
    Hello fellow gun owners/carriers/enthusiasts! I'm new here and need some kind of a solid answer, it might not be possible but there has to be something.
    With the new bill starting in November, I have been trying to find out what has been stopping us from carrying openly up to this point. I came across this in the Oklahoma Self Defense Act.

    Title 21 1289.6 CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH FIREARMS MAY BE CARRIED
    A. A person shall be permitted to carry loaded or unloaded shotguns, rifles, and pistols, open and not concealed and without a handgun liscense as authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, sections 1 through 26 of this act, pursuant to the following conditions
    1. When hunting animals or fowl;
    2. During competition in or practicing in a safety or hunter safety class, target shooting, skeet, trap or other recognized sporting events;
    3. During participation in or in preparation for a military function of the state military forces to be defined as the Oklahoma Army or Air National Guard, Federal Military Reserve and active military forces;
    4. During participation In or in preparation for a recognized police function of either a municipal, county or state goverment as functioning police officials;
    5. During a practice for or a performance for entertainment purposes; or
    6. For any legitimate purpose not in violation of the Oklahoma Firearms Act of 1971, sections 1289.1 through 1289.17 of this title or any legislative enactment regarding the use, ownership and control of firearms.
    Number 6 is the kicker. Isn't getting gas, going grocery shopping, or walking down the street to a friends house legitimate purposes? I have searched the Internet , read the Self Defense Act MANY times front to back, and have read Title 21 in its entirety and can not find anything saying that this section of the Firearms act or Self Defense Act is null and void.

    Does anybody know where it states that OC is illegal? Am I missing something here? Is it possible that we have stopped excersising our right because we have been told for so long that it's against the law and that's it? As a gun owner/carryer, am I expecting to much to think that a law of this nature should be easy to find? Thank you for any input you have regarding this and sorry for the long read, but apparently I am not getting it LOL :-)
    There was a very long discussion way back before the current law was passed on this particular question. As has been stated, the case law from back in the 20's was was the beginning of it..very very bad case law. You should look it up and read it.

    IMHO: Now that the US Supreme Court has ruled that the right to bear arms IS and INDIVIDUAL right, and not a collective right, the whole SDA COULD be challanged, and you could POSSIBLY win...but that would take a long time and a lot of funds....(and risk)
    Last edited by hermannr; 07-27-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  8. #8
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    Thanks guys for the replys! I guess the only thing that makes sense to me are the case laws. I never even thought or even knew about them, which I will be definently try to research. It seems to me that if only going by the SDA or statutes alone, it will only lead a person in an endless circle of cans and/or/but cannots which only makes a person wonder which actually takes precedence, which by the sound of it, the case laws define. Either way, its going to be super nice come November when I can choose between openly carrying, or concealed carry.

  9. #9
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    When you read the current law (pre nov 1) you will see they took a cue from NYS...ban all firearms, the give back little bits and drabs... what was the law guys..1272? anyway, there is one word missing.."concealed"...if they had added that one word to 1272, you would have had your unlicensed OC. Just add "concealed" between the word "carry" and "upon"..first line.

    21-1272.

    UNLAWFUL CARRY

    It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her
    person, or in a purse or other container belonging to the person, any
    pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle whether loaded or unloaded or any
    dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife,
    sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand
    pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of
    the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles,
    or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or
    unconcealed, except this section shall not prohibit:

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